Extraterrestrials: The Fall of Christianity

[jonathan180iq]

Some of these spontaneous emanations have been under controlled watch and no fraud was ever detected.

Ok - So all I'm asking you to do is provide some level of evidence other than an apologetic book written by a known parapsychologist.

If I told you I could throw a baseball all the way to the moon, would you not then ask me to prove it? Wouldn't you want more proof than a book written by someone who already believes people can throw baseballs to the moon?

The videos are lame if you are looking for them to provide strong evidence for the paranormal. What is not lame is the Haroldsson book and the personal experiences of hundreds of regular folk. The Haroldsson book does the only thorough investigation of the paranormal aspects of this figure. His musings (as you put it ) include serious investigations, interviews and follow-up interviews (looking for story changing, etc.). He is acknowledge as a top-notch veteran researcher (except on Wikipedia and skeptic sites).

I'm not discounting his book because of some Wikipedia comments. I'm discounting it because he's a known parapsychologist...

http://archived.parapsych.org/members/e_haraldsson.html

Spontaneous psychic phenomena and folk-beliefs: National surveys and national differences

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1985). Representative national surveys of psychic phenomena: Iceland, Great Britain, Sweden, USA and Gallups multinational survey. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 53, 145-158.

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Joop M. Houtkooper (1991). Psychic Experiences in the Multinational Human Values Study. Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research. 85(2), 145-165.

• Erlendur Haraldsson & Joop Houtkooper (1996). Traditional Christian beliefs, spiritualism and the paranormal: An Icelandic-American Comparison. International Journal for the Psychology of Religion., 6(1), 51-64.

Apparitions of the dead, deathbed-visions and hallucinatory experiences

• Karlis Osis & Erlendur Haraldsson (1997). At the Hour of Death. (Third Edition). Norwalk, CT: Hastings House

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1987). The Iyengar-Kirti case. An apparitional case of the by-stander type.Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 54, 64-67.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1988-89). Survey of claimed encounters with the dead. Omega, the Journal of Death and Dying, 19(2), 103-11
  

Children who speak of memories of a previous life, case studies and psychological characteristics

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1991). Children claiming past-life memories: Four cases in SriLanka. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 5(2), 233-262.
• Erlendur Haraldsson. (1997). Psychological comparison between ordinary children and those who claim previous-life memories. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 11, 323-335.

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Godwin Samararatne (1999). Children who speak of memories of a previous life as a Buddhist monk: Three new cases. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research,63(857), 268-291.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (2000). Birthmarks and claims of previous life memories I. The case of Purnima Ekanayake. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 64(858), 16-25.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (2000). Birthmarks and claims of previous life memories II. The case of Chatura Karunaratne. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research. 64 (859), 82-92.

• Erlendur Haraldsson, Patrick Fowler & Vimala Periyannanpillai (2000). Psychological Characteristics of Children Who Speak of a Previous Life: A Further Field Study in Sri LankaTranscultural Psychiatry, 37, 525-544.

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Majd Abu-Izzeddin (2002). Development of Certainty about the Correct Deceased Person in a Case of the Reincarnation Type: The Case of Nazih Al-Danaf. Journal of Scientific Exploration. 16(3), 363-380.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (in press). Children who speak of past-life experiences: Is there a psychological explanation? Psychology and Psychotherapy: Theory Research and Practice.

Psychic healing

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Orn Olafsson (1980). A survey of psychic healing in Iceland. The Christian Parapsychologist, 3, 276-79.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1994). Research on alternative therapies in Iceland. In H. Johannessen, L. Launsö, S. G. Olesen & F. Staugård (Eds.), Studies in alternative therapy 1 (pp. 46-50) Gylling, Denmark: Odense University Press.

• Erlendur Haraldsson. (1994). Spiritual healing in Iceland - results of a survey. In H. Johannessen, L. Launsö, S. G. Olesen & F. Staugård (Eds.), Studies in alternative therapy 1 (pp. 103-113) Gylling, Denmark: Odense University Press.

Indian miraclemakers; Sai Baba and others

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Karlis Osis (1977). The appearance and disappearance of objects in the presence of Sri Sathya Sai Baba. Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 71, 33-43.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1988). Modern Miracles. An investigative report on psychic phenomena associated with Sri Sathya Sai Baba. New York: Ballantine Books, 304 pp. (USA edition of "Miracles are my visiting cards".)

• Erlendur Haraldsson & Joop M. Houtkooper (1994). Report of an Indian swami claiming to materialize objects: The value and limitations of field observations. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 8(3), 381-397.

• Wiseman, R. & Haraldsson E. (1995) Investigating Macro-PK in India: Swami Premananda. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 60(839) 193-202.

• Erlendur Haraldsson & Richard Wiseman (1995). Reactions to and assessment of a videotape on Sathya Sai Baba. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research 60(839) 203-213.

• Erlendur Haraldsson & Richard Wiseman (1996). Two investigations of ostensible macro-PK in India. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 61(843) 109-113.

Perceptual defensiveness and extrasensory perception

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1978). ESP and the Defense Mechanism Test (DMT). A further validation.European Journal of Parapsychology, 2, 104-114.

• Martin Johnson and Erlendur Haraldsson (1984). The Defence Mechanism Test as a predictor of ESP scores. Journal of Parapsychology. 48, 185-200.

• Erlendur Haraldsson, Joop M. Houtkooper and Claudia Hoeltje (1987). The Defense Mechanism Test as a predictor of ESP performance. Icelandic study VII and meta-analysis of thirteen experiments. Journal of Parapsychology, 51, 75-90.

• Erlendur Haraldsson & Joop Houtkooper (1995). Meta-analysis of ten experiments on perceptual defensiverrness and ESP: ESP scoring patterns, experimenter and decline effects.. Journal of Parapsychology, 59(3) 251-271.

• Erlendur Haraldsson, Joop M. Houtkooper, Rainer Schneider and Martin Bäckström (2002). Perceptual Defensiveness and ESP Performance:Reconstructed DMT-Ratings and Psychological Correlates in the First German DMT-ESP Experiment. Journal of Parapsychology. 66(3), 249-270

Psychological characteristics of belief/disbelief in psi and psi-performance

• Michael A. Thalbourne and Erlendur Haraldsson (1980). Personality characteristics of sheep and goats. Personality and individual differences, 1, 180-185.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1981). Some determinants of belief in psychical phenomena. Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 75, 297-309.

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Joop M. Houtkooper (1992). The effects of perceptual defensiveness, personality and belief on extrasensory perception tasks. Personality and individual differences, 13(10), 1085-1096.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1993). Are religiosity and belief in an afterlife better predictors of ESP performance than belief in psychic phenomena? Journal of Parapsychology. 57, 259-273.

Further experiments

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1970). Subject selection in a machine precognition test. Journal of Parapsychology, 34, 182-191.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1980). Confirmation of the percipient-order effect in a plethysmographic study of ESP. Journal of Parapsychology, 44, 105-124.

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Loftur Reimar Gissurarson (1985). Perceptual defensivenes, ganzfeld and the percipient-order effect. European Journal of Parapsychology, 6, 1-17.

You've spent 25 years studying this stuff and you don't have a single problem with his obvious conflict on interest? Everything posted above, which plainl shows his bias towards these types of studies and was not written by these guerrilla skeptics, was found on just the second link after Googling his name. And yet his book is the BEST evidence you have for the miraculous powers of this Sai Baba character? You don't any problem with that at all?

 

[George-ananda]

Ok - So all I'm asking you to do is provide some level of evidence other than an apologetic book written by a known parapsychologist.

If I told you I could throw a baseball all the way to the moon, would you not then ask me to prove it? Wouldn't you want more proof than a book written by someone who already believes people can throw baseballs to the moon?



I'm not discounting his book because of some Wikipedia comments. I'm discounting it because he's a known parapsychologist...

http://archived.parapsych.org/members/e_haraldsson.html

Spontaneous psychic phenomena and folk-beliefs: National surveys and national differences

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1985). Representative national surveys of psychic phenomena: Iceland, Great Britain, Sweden, USA and Gallups multinational survey. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 53, 145-158.

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Joop M. Houtkooper (1991). Psychic Experiences in the Multinational Human Values Study. Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research. 85(2), 145-165.

• Erlendur Haraldsson & Joop Houtkooper (1996). Traditional Christian beliefs, spiritualism and the paranormal: An Icelandic-American Comparison. International Journal for the Psychology of Religion., 6(1), 51-64.

Apparitions of the dead, deathbed-visions and hallucinatory experiences

• Karlis Osis & Erlendur Haraldsson (1997). At the Hour of Death. (Third Edition). Norwalk, CT: Hastings House

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1987). The Iyengar-Kirti case. An apparitional case of the by-stander type.Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 54, 64-67.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1988-89). Survey of claimed encounters with the dead. Omega, the Journal of Death and Dying, 19(2), 103-11

Children who speak of memories of a previous life, case studies and psychological characteristics

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1991). Children claiming past-life memories: Four cases in SriLanka. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 5(2), 233-262.
• Erlendur Haraldsson. (1997). Psychological comparison between ordinary children and those who claim previous-life memories. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 11, 323-335.

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Godwin Samararatne (1999). Children who speak of memories of a previous life as a Buddhist monk: Three new cases. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research,63(857), 268-291.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (2000). Birthmarks and claims of previous life memories I. The case of Purnima Ekanayake. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 64(858), 16-25.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (2000). Birthmarks and claims of previous life memories II. The case of Chatura Karunaratne. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research. 64 (859), 82-92.

• Erlendur Haraldsson, Patrick Fowler & Vimala Periyannanpillai (2000). Psychological Characteristics of Children Who Speak of a Previous Life: A Further Field Study in Sri LankaTranscultural Psychiatry, 37, 525-544.

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Majd Abu-Izzeddin (2002). Development of Certainty about the Correct Deceased Person in a Case of the Reincarnation Type: The Case of Nazih Al-Danaf. Journal of Scientific Exploration. 16(3), 363-380.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (in press). Children who speak of past-life experiences: Is there a psychological explanation? Psychology and Psychotherapy: Theory Research and Practice.

Psychic healing

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Orn Olafsson (1980). A survey of psychic healing in Iceland. The Christian Parapsychologist, 3, 276-79.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1994). Research on alternative therapies in Iceland. In H. Johannessen, L. Launsö, S. G. Olesen & F. Staugård (Eds.), Studies in alternative therapy 1 (pp. 46-50) Gylling, Denmark: Odense University Press.

• Erlendur Haraldsson. (1994). Spiritual healing in Iceland - results of a survey. In H. Johannessen, L. Launsö, S. G. Olesen & F. Staugård (Eds.), Studies in alternative therapy 1 (pp. 103-113) Gylling, Denmark: Odense University Press.

Indian miraclemakers; Sai Baba and others

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Karlis Osis (1977). The appearance and disappearance of objects in the presence of Sri Sathya Sai Baba. Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 71, 33-43.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1988). Modern Miracles. An investigative report on psychic phenomena associated with Sri Sathya Sai Baba. New York: Ballantine Books, 304 pp. (USA edition of "Miracles are my visiting cards".)

• Erlendur Haraldsson & Joop M. Houtkooper (1994). Report of an Indian swami claiming to materialize objects: The value and limitations of field observations. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 8(3), 381-397.

• Wiseman, R. & Haraldsson E. (1995) Investigating Macro-PK in India: Swami Premananda. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 60(839) 193-202.

• Erlendur Haraldsson & Richard Wiseman (1995). Reactions to and assessment of a videotape on Sathya Sai Baba. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research 60(839) 203-213.

• Erlendur Haraldsson & Richard Wiseman (1996). Two investigations of ostensible macro-PK in India. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 61(843) 109-113.

Perceptual defensiveness and extrasensory perception

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1978). ESP and the Defense Mechanism Test (DMT). A further validation.European Journal of Parapsychology, 2, 104-114.

• Martin Johnson and Erlendur Haraldsson (1984). The Defence Mechanism Test as a predictor of ESP scores. Journal of Parapsychology. 48, 185-200.

• Erlendur Haraldsson, Joop M. Houtkooper and Claudia Hoeltje (1987). The Defense Mechanism Test as a predictor of ESP performance. Icelandic study VII and meta-analysis of thirteen experiments. Journal of Parapsychology, 51, 75-90.

• Erlendur Haraldsson & Joop Houtkooper (1995). Meta-analysis of ten experiments on perceptual defensiverrness and ESP: ESP scoring patterns, experimenter and decline effects.. Journal of Parapsychology, 59(3) 251-271.

• Erlendur Haraldsson, Joop M. Houtkooper, Rainer Schneider and Martin Bäckström (2002). Perceptual Defensiveness and ESP Performance:Reconstructed DMT-Ratings and Psychological Correlates in the First German DMT-ESP Experiment. Journal of Parapsychology. 66(3), 249-270

Psychological characteristics of belief/disbelief in psi and psi-performance

• Michael A. Thalbourne and Erlendur Haraldsson (1980). Personality characteristics of sheep and goats. Personality and individual differences, 1, 180-185.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1981). Some determinants of belief in psychical phenomena. Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 75, 297-309.

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Joop M. Houtkooper (1992). The effects of perceptual defensiveness, personality and belief on extrasensory perception tasks. Personality and individual differences, 13(10), 1085-1096.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1993). Are religiosity and belief in an afterlife better predictors of ESP performance than belief in psychic phenomena? Journal of Parapsychology. 57, 259-273.

Further experiments

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1970). Subject selection in a machine precognition test. Journal of Parapsychology, 34, 182-191.

• Erlendur Haraldsson (1980). Confirmation of the percipient-order effect in a plethysmographic study of ESP. Journal of Parapsychology, 44, 105-124.

• Erlendur Haraldsson and Loftur Reimar Gissurarson (1985). Perceptual defensivenes, ganzfeld and the percipient-order effect. European Journal of Parapsychology, 6, 1-17.

You've spent 25 years studying this stuff and you don't have a single problem with his obvious conflict on interest? Everything posted above, which plainl shows his bias towards these types of studies and was not written by these guerrilla skeptics, was found on just the second link after Googling his name. And yet his book is the BEST evidence you have for the miraculous powers of this Sai Baba character? You don't any problem with that at all?

So you think then that we should only listen to those who think the paranormal has no serious evidence. So, by definition, they think there is no serious evidence. And if they do find serious evidence then pseudo-skeptics look at them as on the 'other side' and as biased and no longer worthy of serious consideration. I have seen that again and again for decades.

The strong pseudo-skeptics I believe are not objective thinkers, but simply no-holds-barred defenders of an atheist-materialist worldview. I and many parapsychologists have moved passed that debate.

 

[jonathan180iq]

So you think then that we should only listen to those who think the paranormal has no serious evidence. So, by definition, they think there is no serious evidence. And if they do find serious evidence then pseudo-skeptics look at them as on the 'other side' and as biased and no longer worthy of serious consideration. I have seen that again and again for decades.

The strong pseudo-skeptics I believe are not objective thinkers, but simply no-holds-barred defenders of an atheist-materialist worldview. I and many parapsychologists have moved passed that debate.

No, George.

If I made some fantastic claim that no one had ever made before, would you prefer the skeptical opinion of an unbiased study into my claim or would you prefer the sayings of people who I had already convinced to believe me? Which of those two findings would you think would hold more value; the biased or the unbiased?

This rule applies to absolutely everything you can think of.
Are soda taste tests carried out on people who have already chosen a favorite flavor of soda, or are they carried out by people who don't drink soda all that often? Surely you understand why, right?

If the ONLY evidence for the "miracles" of Sai Baba comes from the writing of a noted Parapsychologist, wouldn't you take pause at that and reconsider your stance just a little bit? I mean, within this very conversation you have admitted that to the skeptic's eye his "miracles" sure do have a lot in common with slight-of-hand magic tricks. So why are you so defensive of something that's so very obviously not 100% authentic?

You don't have any videos of his supposed manifestations. You've referenced some photos and said that the absolute best evidence is a book written by a guy who made a living writing about psychic healing, past-life memories, and psi powers... You have to admit, if we weren't talking about something that you're already convinced of, that you'd see the problem with this argument, right?

Again, if I was making an argument for my ability to throw a baseball over the moon, would a book written by a fellow baseball-moon thrower be sufficient support for my claim in your eyes?

 

[George-ananda]

If the ONLY evidence for the "miracles" of Sai Baba comes from the writing of a noted Parapsychologist,

This book was just the best synapsis of the evidence I know of. The actual evidence is the cumulative weight of thousands of events and personal experiences objectively considered.

 

[jonathan180iq]

This book was just the best synapsis of the evidence I know of. The actual evidence is the cumulative weight of thousands of events and personal experiences objectively considered.

So then please just cite what you consider to be the best evidence for his alleged abilities and we can move on.

Telling me to read a book that you've already read is kind of an avoidance of the conversation, don't you think?

 

[George-ananda]

So then please just cite what you consider to be the best evidence for his alleged abilities and we can move on.

Any one event or experience can be argued forever. The argument I am making is based on the quantity, quality and consistency of the evidence. An argument from quantity can not be done with a single example but requires a more thorough analysis. I understand this is not convenient for drive-by pseudo-skeptics.

Telling me to read a book that you've already read is kind of an avoidance of the conversation, don't you think?

It is not avoidance. I just know of no better way to present an argument from quantity, quality and consistency. None of those three things can be accomplished with one 'best' example that happens to have an internet video to link to.

 

[Aset's Flames]

Such as?

Becuase Olam Ha-Ba did not occur as prophesied.

Olam Ha-Ba would be the peaceful co-existence of all people.

(Isaiah 2:4) Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist.

Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.

All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.

In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish deity as the only true deity, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9).

There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13).

Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.

 

[rusra02]

Becuase Olam Ha-Ba did not occur as prophesied.

Olam Ha-Ba would be the peaceful co-existence of all people.

(Isaiah 2:4) Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist.

Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.

All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.

In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish deity as the only true deity, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9).

There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13).

Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.

There are prophecies such as Isaiah 2:1-4 whose fulfillment would come in the "final part of the days" and some prophecies that will be fulfilled in the future, such as Isaiah 25:8 and others. The numerous prophecies already fulfilled gives me assurance that I can trust completely that Jehovah will fulfill all his promises. I believe Isaiah 2:4 is already undergoing fulfillment among true worshippers, who today form an international brotherhood that rejects all war and violence. They are true Christians who love one another. (John 13:34,35)

 

[sojourner]

There are prophecies such as Isaiah 2:1-4 whose fulfillment would come in the "final part of the days" and some prophecies that will be fulfilled in the future, such as Isaiah 25:8 and others. The numerous prophecies already fulfilled gives me assurance that I can trust completely that Jehovah will fulfill all his promises. I believe Isaiah 2:4 is already undergoing fulfillment among true worshippers, who today form an international brotherhood that rejects all war and violence. They are true Christians who love one another. (John 13:34,35)

You do, of course, understand that prophecy isn't largely about future prediction, right?

 

[rusra02]

You do, of course, understand that prophecy isn't largely about future prediction, right?

From Insight on the Scriptures ll p.690: "An inspired message; a revelation of divine will and purpose or the proclamation thereof. Prophecy may be an inspired moral teaching, an expression of a divine command or judgment, or a declaration of something to come. Prediction, or foretelling, is not the basic thought conveyed by the root verbs in the original languages (Heb., na·vaʼʹ; Gr., pro·phe·teuʹo); yet it forms an outstanding feature of Bible prophecy."

 

[sojourner]

From Insight on the Scriptures ll p.690: "An inspired message; a revelation of divine will and purpose or the proclamation thereof. Prophecy may be an inspired moral teaching, an expression of a divine command or judgment, or a declaration of something to come. Prediction, or foretelling, is not the basic thought conveyed by the root verbs in the original languages (Heb., na·vaʼʹ; Gr., pro·phe·teuʹo); yet it forms an outstanding feature of Bible prophecy."

Funny... It confirms what I just said.

 

[rusra02]

Funny... It confirms what I just said.

Yes, you are correct. I think, however, we should not minimize the major role foretelling the future has in prophesying.

 

[Aset's Flames]

There are prophecies such as Isaiah 2:1-4 whose fulfillment would come in the "final part of the days" and some prophecies that will be fulfilled in the future, such as Isaiah 25:8 and others. The numerous prophecies already fulfilled gives me assurance that I can trust completely that Jehovah will fulfill all his promises. I believe Isaiah 2:4 is already undergoing fulfillment among true worshippers, who today form an international brotherhood that rejects all war and violence. They are true Christians who love one another. (John 13:34,35)

But if that is the case than could not anyone be the messiah? They could fulfill these signs in the future.

In addition the "miracles" performed have no historical record of occurring.

 

[rusra02]

But if that is the case than could not anyone be the messiah? They could fulfill these signs in the future.

In addition the "miracles" performed have no historical record of occurring.

No, no one today can prove they are a descendant of King David, and therefore have the legal right to rule in God's Kingdom as his anointed one (messiah). (2 Samuel 7:16) Jesus Christ is a descendant of David, as well as Abraham.
The gospel records are historical documents in themselves. The late Frederick F. Bruce, professor of Biblical criticism and exegesis at the University of Manchester, England, stated: “It is not usually possible to demonstrate by historical arguments the truth of every detail in an ancient writing, whether inside or outside the Bible. It is sufficient to have reasonable confidence in a writer’s general trustworthiness; if that is established, there is an a priori likelihood that his details are true. . . . The New Testament is not less likely to be historically reliable because Christians receive it as ‘sacred’ literature.”

 

[Aset's Flames]

No, no one today can prove they are a descendant of King David, and therefore have the legal right to rule in God's Kingdom as his anointed one (messiah). (2 Samuel 7:16) Jesus Christ is a descendant of David, as well as Abraham.
The gospel records are historical documents in themselves. The late Frederick F. Bruce, professor of Biblical criticism and exegesis at the University of Manchester, England, stated: “It is not usually possible to demonstrate by historical arguments the truth of every detail in an ancient writing, whether inside or outside the Bible. It is sufficient to have reasonable confidence in a writer’s general trustworthiness; if that is established, there is an a priori likelihood that his details are true. . . . The New Testament is not less likely to be historically reliable because Christians receive it as ‘sacred’ literature.”

You just quoted a unreliable book in order to attempt to prove this random carpenter is a descendant of an ancient monarch.

Has it ever occurred to you that these details could have been added by other people who wished to make sure that these prophecies seemed fufuilled?

Let me ask you this, if the bible I correct then why did the Romans not report the dead walking when Yeshua (often changed to Jesus) was crucified?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So then please just cite what you consider to be the best evidence for his alleged abilities and we can move on.

Telling me to read a book that you've already read is kind of an avoidance of the conversation, don't you think?

It's turtles all the way down with this guy.

 

[Aset's Flames]

So you think then that we should only listen to those who think the paranormal has no serious evidence. So, by definition, they think there is no serious evidence. And if they do find serious evidence then pseudo-skeptics look at them as on the 'other side' and as biased and no longer worthy of serious consideration. I have seen that again and again for decades.

The strong pseudo-skeptics I believe are not objective thinkers, but simply no-holds-barred defenders of an atheist-materialist worldview. I and many parapsychologists have moved passed that debate.

A skeptic doubts everything. There is no "athiest worldview" as atheism does not promote a worldview.

 

[jonathan180iq]

This is one of my favorite conversation starters...

The Holy Book of God literally describes zombies crawling out of their graves all over Jerusalem and hanging out for a few days like it's totally normal,... But when I tell people I like to watch The Walking Dead, they sometimes joke about ridiculously impossible scenarios... WTF?

 

[George-ananda]

A skeptic doubts everything.

I avow open-minded skepticism myself. It is a valid method for learning about the universe. Closed-minded skepticism is what I and others call pseudo-skepticism. These types are not really interested in an open-minded skeptical approach, but just take a no-holds-barred defense of the atheist-materialist worldview from all attacks.

There is no "athiest worldview" as atheism does not promote a worldview.

You misquoted me. I did not say 'atheist worldview' I said 'atheist-materialist' worldview that says everything (including consciousness) can be reduce to the operation of physical matter following natural law. That is a worldview.

You, as a follower of Asetianism, should see things similarly to me I would think.

 

[Aset's Flames]

I avow open-minded skepticism myself. It is a valid method for learning about the universe. Closed-minded skepticism is what I and others call pseudo-skepticism. These types are not really interested in an open-minded skeptical approach, but just take a no-holds-barred defense of the atheist-materialist worldview from all attacks.

You misquoted me. I did not say 'atheist worldview' I said 'atheist-materialist' worldview that says everything (including consciousness) can be reduce to the operation of physical matter following natural law. That is a worldview.

You, as a follower of Asetianism, should see things similarly to me I would think.

Materialist world view and atheist world view are not nessecarly congruent.

Many atheist are materialistic but some are not.