Exploring Theisms: Transcendence

[Quintessence]

It's been a while since I created another one of these threads, and it's high time that I do so. I think I've covered most of the major theistic ideas regarding the "how many gods are there?" question, so let's move on from that and look at how various peoples conceptualize the attributes of the gods.

The first attribute some believe of gods is that of transcendence. As it pertains to the idea of gods, transcendence is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as follows:

transcendence, n.
1. a. The action or fact of transcending, surmounting, or rising above; †ascent, elevation (obs.); excelling, surpassing; also, the condition or quality of being transcendent, surpassing eminence or excellence

b. spec. Of the Deity: The attribute of being above and independent of the universe; distinguished from immanence

The idea of divine transcendence is a hallmark of the most widely-held understanding of the gods in the contemporary era: classical monotheism. That understanding of god (or more properly, God) sees divinity and our material universe as categorically distinct from one another. This idea has a broad spectrum of other theological implications, and I'd like us to take some time to explore that for a while.

What do you think about the idea of god(s) being transcendent? Is your understanding of god(s) transcendent? How does that influence other ideas within your theology or impact your religious practices? For example, how do you go about connecting with and knowing a transcendent god? Is it even possible, or is it meant to represent eternal mystery and the unknown?

 

[`mud]

To me, it's like understanding of from what a shadow is made.
~
'mud

 

[Quintessence]

To me, it's like understanding of from what a shadow is made.
~
'mud

That's a very helpful analogy. Transcendence is a theological concept that has never made much sense to me, because from my point of view, everything is of the universe and nothing can be independent from it. Or if it was, I have difficulty seeing how something fully independent from something could have any influence on it. I believe the formally named philosophical issue here with transcendence is called the problem of interaction or some such?

 

[`mud]

I get that, like the interaction with the lack of photons,
the presence of a 'spirit' like mingling into the gnosis of one's inner being.
~
If I go any further, it will start sounding theistically influenced.
Thief will be coming in any time now !
Put a 'A' before that word.....please.
~
'mud

 

[George-ananda]

I am coming at these questions from a Advaitan non-dual perspective (God and creation are not-two). That said I believe there are gods that are beings on the higher realms.

What do you think about the idea of god(s) being transcendent?

I believe the gods are transcendent in that they reside on the higher realms and involve themselves with the spiritual (and sometimes physical) welfare of beings on lower realms. Their nature allows them to 'transcend' realms.

Is your understanding of god(s) transcendent?

Yes

How does that influence other ideas within your theology or impact your religious practices?

That we can pray and petition to higher beings to aid our spiritual growth and physical welfare. And I believe they will respond appropriately to deep heartfelt prayers. The response or seeming lack of obvious response is often not what we think we want but we must trust that their overall perspective is grander than ours.

For example, how do you go about connecting with and knowing a transcendent god?

It is best to form an image of the god we are petitioning and pray to that form. This form is for our focusing benefit.

Is it even possible, or is it meant to represent eternal mystery and the unknown?

It is possible and can aid us on our path to knowing what was once 'the unknown'.

 

[Quintessence]

Do we think that transcendence requires or demands supernaturalism as well, or can they be separate concepts?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That understanding of god (or more properly, God) sees divinity and our material universe as categorically distinct from one another.

When you say "material universe" are you including consciousness, spirit, soul etc?

 

[Orbit]

What do you think about the idea of god(s) being transcendent?
Is your understanding of god(s) transcendent?

Being a panentheist, I believe God is both immanent and transcendent, and is not the Abrahamic God.

How does that influence other ideas within your theology or impact your religious practices? For example, how do you go about connecting with and knowing a transcendent god?

By connecting with the Ground of All Being in meditation; by connecting to the God within all of us in meditation.

Is it even possible, or is it meant to represent eternal mystery and the unknown?

We can't know the transcendent God in any intellectual way. God can be experienced, but not known.

 

[Quintessence]

When you say "material universe" are you including consciousness, spirit, soul etc?

Although I could be wrong to presume this, it seems to me that the quality of transcendence either requires or presupposes substance dualism. In other words, it requires a model of understanding reality that separates it into "material" and "spiritual" parts, with god (usually God) being put in the "spiritual" category. In this way, God is considered fundamentally different stuff than the mundane or the material. One of the major reasons I cannot embrace the idea of transcendent gods in my path is because I reject substance dualism. When everything is "universe" there's no separate category of stuff for gods to occupy. And while I don't think the definition of transcendence leaves this closed to interpretation - that is to say, based on the OED definition, transcendence is not necessarily limited to substance dualism - transcendence traditionally demands substance dualism as well as supernaturalism.

Thoughts?

 

[Quintessence]

For those of you using that word "spirit," what exactly do you mean by that?

 

[Orbit]

Although I could be wrong to presume this, it seems to me that the quality of transcendence either requires or presupposes substance dualism. In other words, it requires a model of understanding reality that separates it into "material" and "spiritual" parts, with god (usually God) being put in the "spiritual" category. In this way, God is considered fundamentally different stuff than the mundane or the material. One of the major reasons I cannot embrace the idea of transcendent gods in my path is because I reject substance dualism. When everything is "universe" there's no separate category of stuff for gods to occupy. And while I don't think the definition of transcendence leaves this closed to interpretation - that is to say, based on the OED definition, transcendence is not necessarily limited to substance dualism - transcendence traditionally demands substance dualism as well as supernaturalism.

Thoughts?

I also reject dualism; panentheism makes this possible. God encompasses all creation and is not separate from it.

 

[`mud]

......the presence of a 'spirit' like mingling into the gnosis of one's inner being......
~
'mud

 

[Rick O'Shez]

When everything is "universe" there's no separate category of stuff for gods to occupy.

But if you're equating God with the universe, then why differentiate at all? Why introduce the idea of God? Why not just examine the nature of the universe?

 

[George-ananda]

Do we think that transcendence requires or demands supernaturalism as well, or can they be separate concepts?

In my thinking, transcendence would not make sense in a materialistic worldview. In my view, there are layers in our entire realm of existence and these can be transcended. For example, an advanced meditator can slow/stop his normal mental activities enough to transcend the lower physical realms and experience the greater peace and bliss of his soul's realm.

 

[Acintya_Ash]

I am theist who believes God is the Only Independent being and everything Animate(souls) and Inanimate(matter) is dependent on him, although all three are eternally existent.

What do you think about the idea of god(s) being transcendent?

God, is unembodied, omniscient, beyond reproach, without veins, pure and uncontaminated, He is described there as sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha, which means that He is the eternal form fully representing transcendental existence, knowledge and bliss. As such, He does not require a separate body or mind, as we do in material existence.

How does that influence other ideas within your theology or impact your religious practices? For example, how do you go about connecting with and knowing a transcendent god? Is it even possible, or is it meant to represent eternal mystery and the unknown?

As per our tradition, Spiritual knowledge descends through the disciplic succession from God. One must learn it from an authorised Spiritual Master under that succession.

 

[Quintessence]

I also reject dualism; panentheism makes this possible. God encompasses all creation and is not separate from it.

Panentheism does seem to be among the ways to have non-dualistic transcendence in a god-concept. I suppose I haven't yet made threads for panentheism or pantheism yet in my series of threads. I'll need to get around to it.

But if you're equating God with the universe, then why differentiate at all? Why introduce the idea of God? Why not just examine the nature of the universe?

And this reminds me that I should get around to pantheism and panentheism threads too. It'd be a question better suited for that discussion, I think.

But briefly speaking as someone who identifies as pantheistic (among other things; that doesn't alone describe my theology), it's about identifying all of reality as objects of worship, or seeing all things as sacred. This is not an insignificant distinction; the mentality is not the same as a person who doesn't make that equation, and as it alters mentality, it also alters behavior.

To spin this back to be a bit more on-topic, one of the ways it alters mentality is with how we regard the material world. With transcendence, the material world is regarded as profane, and therefore (typically) of inherently lesser value than the sacred. It allows for a large percentage of people in my country to justify exploitation of anything that isn't human for their own benefit. This de-sacrilizing of the universe is at odds with a non-transcendent vision of god(s). There will be a thread on immanence later. I thought about combining them since the concepts are so related, but decided against it at the time.

In my thinking, transcendence would not make sense in a materialistic worldview. In my view, there are layers in our entire realm of existence and these can be transcended. For example, an advanced meditator can slow/stop his normal mental activities enough to transcend the lower physical realms and experience the greater peace and bliss of his soul's realm.

Is supernaturalism a poor term for this, then? I often wonder about that word, and prefer to not use it myself.

 

[Robert.Evans]

That's a very helpful analogy. Transcendence is a theological concept that has never made much sense to me, because from my point of view, everything is of the universe and nothing can be independent from it. Or if it was, I have difficulty seeing how something fully independent from something could have any influence on it. I believe the formally named philosophical issue here with transcendence is called the problem of interaction or some such?

It is a reflection of its own Self, fractal.

 

[George-ananda]

Is supernaturalism a poor term for this, then? I often wonder about that word, and prefer to not use it myself.

Many words in spiritual discussions are unclear and sometimes used differently. In my thinking everything is natural so, yes, supernaturalism is not a good term. However in colloquial speech, the word 'supernatural' can mean anything above the physical realm.

 

[`mud]

....everything on this earth is 'supernatural',
everything in the Cosmos is 'supernatural'.....
Except life....."Life is stuff"
Like some people say: "Everything else is beyond consciousness, or is consciousness"
Take your choice and join the party !
~
'mud

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It is a reflection of its own Self, fractal.

Could you explain that a bit more? Fractal means patterns being repeated at progressively smaller levels, but I'm not sure how this relates to ideas of God and self.