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Explaining negativity towards Muslims and/or Islam?

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Here are some of the things that might account for negativity towards Muslims and/or Islam in general, justified or not (and of course mostly it isn't):

An Ipsos Mori survey has revealed that British people think that there are twice as many immigrants in the country than is really the case – and four times as many Muslims.

So ignorance accounts for much - seeing larger numbers of Muslims in the population than there are (at least, in the UK).

Some factors that might influence any negativity towards Muslims - the rise of ISIS in recent years and their demise; the Twin Towers attack (and reaction from some Muslims); Israel, and the continuous rocket attacks from Hezbollah; the number of Muslims wanting Sharia law, here in the UK and possibly elsewhere; sexual abuse of children by groups of Asians, here in the UK; every terrorist action against non-Muslims (Charlie Hebdo, for example); blasphemy and/or apostasy laws in many countries (being quite severe) - they all tend to contribute towards having a negative image of Islam and how it seemingly doesn't fit in with Western ways of thinking or behaving.

Muslims 'oppose cartoons reprisals'

Some 35% said they felt most British people did not trust Muslims, and a fifth said they thought Western liberal society could never be compatible with Islam.

20% is rather a large amount if that means they might fail to integrate into society - rather than having expectations of changing such - which might understandably upset any existing population who might not want this. And it hardly helps living in a country where one has to suspect the motives of some living there, as to their allegiance, that is.

The right to deny the existence of God is under threat

Atheists and humanists are increasingly being targeted as distinct minorities in “hate campaigns” across the globe, according to a new report which found that religious and political leaders are ratcheting up rhetoric against those who believe there is no God. The report claims that the “hate speech” against atheists does not come exclusively from reactionary or radical religious leaders, but increasingly from political leaders, including heads of state. The Freedom of Thought report, published by the International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU), states: “In 2014, in addition to laws such as those targeting ‘apostasy’ and ‘blasphemy’, we have seen a marked increase in specific targeting of ‘atheists’ and ‘humanism’ as such, using these terms in a broadly correct way (the users know what they are saying) but with intent clearly borne of ignorance or intolerance toward these groups.” The report singles out Najib Razak, the Prime Minister of Malaysia, who has called “humanism and secularism as well as liberalism” a “deviant” threat to Islam and the state. In a speech to the Quran Recital Assembly Razak said: “We will not tolerate any demands or right to apostasy by Muslims.” Saudi Arabia is criticised for a new law equating “atheism” with “terrorism”. The very first article of the kingdom’s new terror regulations banned: “Calling for atheist thought in any form, or calling into question the fundamentals of the Islamic religion”. Secular critics of Egypt’s president Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, the general who toppled Islamist President Mohamed Mursi, have found themselves targeted, through what the report calls “an organized backlash against young atheists”.

Islam - a tolerant religion - as long as one isn't an atheist (in some countries)?

Muslims 'dehumanised' says Qatar royal

"A Muslim is first and foremost identified as a Muslim, rather than simply a human being. Whether they are Pakistani, Malaysian, Senegalese, or even British born, their multiple identities are levelled under a constructed monolith of Islam," she said. This collective identity was seen as something "fearful and unknowable", said Sheikha Moza, mother of the current emir of Qatar and wife of the previous ruler.

Possibly because most Muslims would identify as firstly being a Muslim above all else, whilst many of us would identify as being human first?

Paris terror attacks: We Muslims must hunt down these monsters who make a mockery of our religion

My dear Muslim brothers and sisters, it is time to make our voices heard: we must rise up massively and tell the barbarians who ordered, executed or condoned the acts of mass murder just committed in Paris that from now on we will take the lead in fighting and hunting them down, not just beside, but ahead of, our Christian, Jewish, or agnostic brothers and sisters. We must do so because Muslims are the extremists’ first victims and because we have mustered the courage to take our responsibilities and launch a massive, global movement for Islamic reform. If we do not, we must accept that these monsters represent Islam (and us) in the face of the entire world. With obvious consequences in many an forthcoming European election. The choice is ours.

Negativity towards a group as a whole is usually never factually based, but one might understand why Islam and Muslims are so often perceived in certain ways. In the past, much the same has happened to other religious beliefs, and currently it is Islam in the spotlight.

Comments?
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
It is not possible to do that. To reduce Islam down in effect to one moral system. If you look closer you will find Muslims which are in effect secular, humanistic and democratic. And you will find Westerners, who are not that.
In practice a Muslim is a person, who self-identifies as a Muslim and that is all. What a Muslim is, is as varied as humans are varied in general.
 

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
What about the fact that even moderate Muslims tend to have more in common with fundamentalist Christians than the average person? Or the imperialism, where you have people in Turkey and Somalia being forced into a completely foreign culture, only to be treated as lesser by their invaders?

What about the harsh theocracies in places like Saudi Arabia that harken back to the Middle Ages? And the rampant xenophobia, homophobia, and misogyny that comes with that mentality?

I mean, sure, it's not all Muslims, but it is the global majority. Ex-Muslims normally end up having to flee their country so they aren't killed by their own family. Is this really something we should be trying to defend?

(ETA: I don't have negativity towards Muslims, but I do have quite a bit of values dissonance with most of Islam and Islamic culture. They hate me, too. I'm the epitome of everything they dislike about occidental culture.)
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
What about the fact that even moderate Muslims tend to have more in common with fundamentalist Christians than the average person? Or the imperialism, where you have people in Turkey and Somalia being forced into a completely foreign culture, only to be treated as lesser by their invaders?

What about the harsh theocracies in places like Saudi Arabia that harken back to the Middle Ages? And the rampant xenophobia, homophobia, and misogyny that comes with that mentality?

I mean, sure, it's not all Muslims, but it is the global majority. Ex-Muslims normally end up having to flee their country so they aren't killed by their own family. Is this really something we should be trying to defend?

(ETA: I don't have negativity towards Muslims, but I do have quite a bit of values dissonance with most of Islam and Islamic culture. They hate me, too. I'm the epitome of everything they dislike about occidental culture.)

Well, yes, you can do that. But that is not religion per se, that is culture and religion. Now if you want to do it, you have to look at history, culture, economics, politics and so on, and in combination with religion. Religion is never purely just religion. It is always embedded in all those other factors.
 

EsonauticSage

Between extremes
The West is just stuck in dualism, it thinks that itself is God and that the East is Satan. It's a veiled supremacist attitude.
It doesn't help that there are so many disinfo and defamation campaigns against Islam, very much a money-making business at the moment.
It only gets worse when a large majority of things used to slander Islam aren't even to do with Islam directly, such as supposed "apostasy laws". So ridiculous.
 

EsonauticSage

Between extremes
What about the fact that even moderate Muslims tend to have more in common with fundamentalist Christians than the average person?

That's too much of a generalization. For Salafis and Atharis for instance, you'll find a much closer resemblance to Evangelical Fundamentalism (and terrorism) than other schools of thought. Because both push very hard into the anti-rationalist camp, which is not a majority view in Islam.
Then you've got Shi'ism which despite sadly being pulled into the political cesspool with the western dualism of US vs Iran, is definitely nowhere near fundamentalist (Shi'ism matter of fact is a gnostic tradition - the pure esoteric Islam).

Or the imperialism, where you have people in Turkey and Somalia being forced into a completely foreign culture, only to be treated as lesser by their invaders?

Politics.

What about the harsh theocracies in places like Saudi Arabia that harken back to the Middle Ages? And the rampant xenophobia, homophobia, and misogyny that comes with that mentality?

Politics again. That's like critiquing Christianity via the actions of the US Government. Sure there may be statistical relations due to populous but otherwise there isn't a direct correlation.

Also you'll find more Muslims that hate Saudi Arabia than one's that love it. It's very universally hated by Sunnis and Shia alike.

(ETA: I don't have negativity towards Muslims, but I do have quite a bit of values dissonance with most of Islam and Islamic culture. They hate me, too. I'm the epitome of everything they dislike about occidental culture.)

Idk why you would say that. I'm an anarchist and I love the potentialities of Satanism.
 

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
Well, yes, you can do that. But that is not religion per se, that is culture and religion. Now if you want to do it, you have to look at history, culture, economics, politics and so on, and in combination with religion. Religion is never purely just religion. It is always embedded in all those other factors.

Culture is unfortunately a part of religion in most definitions. That's in large part because "religion" (as opposed to spirituality or magic) is normally seen as communal and about communities. As such, yes, I can critique a religion by critiquing its cultural norms and mores. That's how it works.

It doesn't criticize every denomination of that religion, to be fair. As you yourself said, a Muslim is mostly just somebody who self-identifies with that label, and anyone can do that for any reason. I'm actually pretty cool with a few sects of Islam that I don't have very many complaints about.

But you can't just say that religion is above criticism by trying to water it down until it's meaningless. That might help smooth cooperation between different groups, but it's fundamentally at odds with having honest conversation. It reminds me of this moment with Carl Sagan:

 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The West is just stuck in dualism, it thinks that itself is God and that the East is Satan. It's a veiled supremacist attitude.
It doesn't help that there are so many disinfo and defamation campaigns against Islam, very much a money-making business at the moment.
It only gets worse when a large majority of things used to slander Islam aren't even to do with Islam directly, such as supposed "apostasy laws". So ridiculous.

Yes, historically it is the combination of One True God and One Truth as per western philosophy. There is more of course but in the end it is that "We hold Truth and thus are Right and can rule the world". :(
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...

But you can't just say that religion is above criticism by trying to water it down until it's meaningless. ...

No of course not. But that holds for all big categories: Science, philosophy including truth, all political ideologies including democracy and indeed religion.
Even criticism can be viewed in a critical sense. :D
 

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
That's too much of a generalization. For Salafis and Atharis for instance, you'll find a much closer resemblance to Evangelical Fundamentalism (and terrorism) than other schools of thought. Because both push very hard into the anti-rationalist camp, which is not a majority view in Islam.
Then you've got Shi'ism which despite sadly being pulled into the political cesspool with the western dualism of US vs Iran, is definitely nowhere near fundamentalist (Shi'ism matter of fact is a gnostic tradition - the pure esoteric Islam).

Nothing you've said here actually goes against what I said, although I would say that even many Shias and Sunnis tend to be more extreme than your average Protestant in my experience. And from what I've heard of most ex-Muslims, there's a lot of fundamentalist-level tomfoolery going on behind closed doors in those communities even in America, too.

Politics again. That's like critiquing Christianity via the actions of the US Government. Sure there may be statistical relations due to populous but otherwise there isn't a direct correlation.

It's more like criticising Christianity based on the Catholic or Orthodox churches, or criticising Satanism based on the Church of Satan or BALG, both of which I think are pretty valid critiques.

Also you'll find more Muslims that hate Saudi Arabia than one's that love it. It's very universally hated by Sunnis and Shia alike.

So? Infighting is common in religion. Saudi Arabia isn't the only Islamic theocracy out there right now, and as far as I'm aware most of them don't get along.

Idk why you would say that. I'm an anarchist and I love the potentialities of Satanism.

And that's fine, I don't know that I have any fundamental disagreement with you in particular.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It only gets worse when a large majority of things used to slander Islam aren't even to do with Islam directly, such as supposed "apostasy laws". So ridiculous.
It might not directly relate to your Islam, but it sure does relate to the hadith based Islam of those who support apostasy laws.
 

King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
Here are some of the things that might account for negativity towards Muslims and/or Islam in general, justified or not (and of course mostly it isn't):

An Ipsos Mori survey has revealed that British people think that there are twice as many immigrants in the country than is really the case – and four times as many Muslims.

So ignorance accounts for much - seeing larger numbers of Muslims in the population than there are (at least, in the UK).

Some factors that might influence any negativity towards Muslims - the rise of ISIS in recent years and their demise; the Twin Towers attack (and reaction from some Muslims); Israel, and the continuous rocket attacks from Hezbollah; the number of Muslims wanting Sharia law, here in the UK and possibly elsewhere; sexual abuse of children by groups of Asians, here in the UK; every terrorist action against non-Muslims (Charlie Hebdo, for example); blasphemy and/or apostasy laws in many countries (being quite severe) - they all tend to contribute towards having a negative image of Islam and how it seemingly doesn't fit in with Western ways of thinking or behaving.

Muslims 'oppose cartoons reprisals'

Some 35% said they felt most British people did not trust Muslims, and a fifth said they thought Western liberal society could never be compatible with Islam.

20% is rather a large amount if that means they might fail to integrate into society - rather than having expectations of changing such - which might understandably upset any existing population who might not want this. And it hardly helps living in a country where one has to suspect the motives of some living there, as to their allegiance, that is.

The right to deny the existence of God is under threat

Atheists and humanists are increasingly being targeted as distinct minorities in “hate campaigns” across the globe, according to a new report which found that religious and political leaders are ratcheting up rhetoric against those who believe there is no God. The report claims that the “hate speech” against atheists does not come exclusively from reactionary or radical religious leaders, but increasingly from political leaders, including heads of state. The Freedom of Thought report, published by the International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU), states: “In 2014, in addition to laws such as those targeting ‘apostasy’ and ‘blasphemy’, we have seen a marked increase in specific targeting of ‘atheists’ and ‘humanism’ as such, using these terms in a broadly correct way (the users know what they are saying) but with intent clearly borne of ignorance or intolerance toward these groups.” The report singles out Najib Razak, the Prime Minister of Malaysia, who has called “humanism and secularism as well as liberalism” a “deviant” threat to Islam and the state. In a speech to the Quran Recital Assembly Razak said: “We will not tolerate any demands or right to apostasy by Muslims.” Saudi Arabia is criticised for a new law equating “atheism” with “terrorism”. The very first article of the kingdom’s new terror regulations banned: “Calling for atheist thought in any form, or calling into question the fundamentals of the Islamic religion”. Secular critics of Egypt’s president Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, the general who toppled Islamist President Mohamed Mursi, have found themselves targeted, through what the report calls “an organized backlash against young atheists”.

Islam - a tolerant religion - as long as one isn't an atheist (in some countries)?

Muslims 'dehumanised' says Qatar royal

"A Muslim is first and foremost identified as a Muslim, rather than simply a human being. Whether they are Pakistani, Malaysian, Senegalese, or even British born, their multiple identities are levelled under a constructed monolith of Islam," she said. This collective identity was seen as something "fearful and unknowable", said Sheikha Moza, mother of the current emir of Qatar and wife of the previous ruler.

Possibly because most Muslims would identify as firstly being a Muslim above all else, whilst many of us would identify as being human first?

Paris terror attacks: We Muslims must hunt down these monsters who make a mockery of our religion

My dear Muslim brothers and sisters, it is time to make our voices heard: we must rise up massively and tell the barbarians who ordered, executed or condoned the acts of mass murder just committed in Paris that from now on we will take the lead in fighting and hunting them down, not just beside, but ahead of, our Christian, Jewish, or agnostic brothers and sisters. We must do so because Muslims are the extremists’ first victims and because we have mustered the courage to take our responsibilities and launch a massive, global movement for Islamic reform. If we do not, we must accept that these monsters represent Islam (and us) in the face of the entire world. With obvious consequences in many an forthcoming European election. The choice is ours.

Negativity towards a group as a whole is usually never factually based, but one might understand why Islam and Muslims are so often perceived in certain ways. In the past, much the same has happened to other religious beliefs, and currently it is Islam in the spotlight.

Comments?
On May not like islam because Mohammed married a six-year-old. I believe she was 18
 

EsonauticSage

Between extremes
It might not directly relate to your Islam, but it sure does relate to the hadith based Islam of those who support apostasy laws.

Nope not that either, that requires redefining terms to make it fit the Catholic/Protestant/Atheist model of thinking which is alien to both the Holy Qur'an and Hadith.
There is no such concept. The word that people erroneously try to equate to "apostasy" is irtidād, but that doesn't fit at all as it refers to an act of treason and not anything to do with Iman (faith), and Iman is sacred and cannot be acted upon as it is something gained. A Muslim does not start out with Iman, they earn it through cultivating spiritual practice (prayer and meditation).

The common dialogue around these issues are incredibly shallow and do not represent what Islam says, and that's a problem, because you are judging Islam from a faulty and non-existent premise; and then conflating your faulty premise with the transgressions of various governments.

Apostasy laws are non-Islamic. It is political corruption, nothing more.
 

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
Nope not that either, that requires redefining terms to make it fit the Catholic/Protestant/Atheist model of thinking which is alien to both the Holy Qur'an and Hadith.
There is no such concept. The word that people erroneously try to equate to "apostasy" is irtidād, but that doesn't fit at all as it refers to an act of treason and not anything to do with Iman (faith), and Iman is sacred and cannot be acted upon as it is something gained. A Muslim does not start out with Iman, they earn it through cultivating spiritual practice (prayer and meditation).

The common dialogue around these issues are incredibly shallow and do not represent what Islam says, and that's a problem, because you are judging Islam from a faulty and non-existent premise; and then conflating your faulty premise with the transgressions of various governments.

Apostasy laws are non-Islamic. It is political corruption, nothing more.

That's a nice No True Scotsman argument you cooked up there.
 

EsonauticSage

Between extremes
That's a nice No True Scotsman argument you cooked up there.

Not at all. Muslims, like Atheists, Satanist and Christians, and anyone else, can and do do terrible things. I don't deny that bad things are done in the name of Islam, henceforth I am correcting the proper way of framing the discussion because of how popular fallacies and misrepresentation is for furthering peoples biases.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
There is a "Muslim" problem or we would not be talking about it.

Where the problem lays is a far more difficult to answer.
The problem presents itself to a very large extent an the various interfaces between those following the muslin faith and those that do not.
There are very large areas of the UK where there are insignificant numbers of Muslims and where there is almost no recognition of problems at all.
In some other more urban locations the Muslim populations can be approaching a majority, and where they constitute a near majority of the elected local politicians. usually with few problems at all.

However it is only where there are significant large numbers of young radical Muslims, that the greatest concerns and unrest develops,
This seems to usually develop around significant Radical religious teachers associated with certain localised mosques. These too are often associated with Saudi Arabia.
Unlike some other countries there is remarkably little aggravation between the Sunni and Shia followers here.

Thirty years ago it was uncommon to notice any Muslim by the way they dressed in the UK. though quite large the Muslim population mostly wore western dress, or took on a sort of hybrid fashion. Arab style dress and face coverings were almost unknown.

The change to distinctive Muslim style clothing here seems to have grown with the rise of Islamic identity and radicalism in the middle east.

I suspect easy Identification leads to the greater possibility of direct confrontation.

A large proportion of the native British people are neither religious nor even care what religion or none that someone else follows. they are both unaware and do not care. It also seems to be true that they do no like it for people to "flaunt" their religion and that applies to all religions. in the UK religion is very largely a private matter. Where ever Religion is flaunted seems to lead to trouble. that is very much the case in Northern Ireland. I suspect it is also the case toward Muslims.

Of course in a majority of communities there is absolutely no Muslim problem of any sort.
but where it does occur it can be very problematic indeed.

Anti discrimination laws seem to be no help at all, and sometimes aggravate the situation.

Fundamental Christians do exist in the UK, but keep their heads down and seem as rare as hens teeth. they are certainly not any sort of problem.
Hasidic Jews seem to keep to very much to themselves, and are rarely seen here at all. In my small home town a group of Hasidic boys and teachers seem to visit one a year, and are very much the subject of curiosity and wonder, rather than any other reaction.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
There is a "Muslim" problem or we would not be talking about it.

...

However it is only where there are significant large numbers of young radical Muslims, that the greatest concerns and unrest develops,
This seems to usually develop around significant Radical religious teachers associated with certain localised mosques. These too are often associated with Saudi Arabia.
Unlike some other countries there is remarkably little aggravation between the Sunni and Shia followers here.

Thirty years ago it was uncommon to notice any Muslim by the way they dressed in the UK. though quite large the Muslim population mostly wore western dress, or took on a sort of hybrid fashion. Arab style dress and face coverings were almost unknown.

The change to distinctive Muslim style clothing here seems to have grown with the rise of Islamic identity and radicalism in the middle east.

...

So it is not the religion as such. It is the religion and something more.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
It is not possible to do that. To reduce Islam down in effect to one moral system. If you look closer you will find Muslims which are in effect secular, humanistic and democratic. And you will find Westerners, who are not that.
In practice a Muslim is a person, who self-identifies as a Muslim and that is all. What a Muslim is, is as varied as humans are varied in general.

Well my point is more about how others are perceived - often related to what is in the news or in their own communities - and Muslims, for whatever reasons, are standing out more so as to attract such attention - and which is often negative. I quite agree that anything attributed to Muslims could equally be made for almost all others, but perception is what counts, it seems, as to how we view others.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Well my point is more about how others are perceived - often related to what is in the news or in their own communities - and Muslims, for whatever reasons, are standing out more so as to attract such attention - and which is often negative. I quite agree that anything attributed to Muslims could equally be made for almost all others, but perception is what counts, it seems, as to how we view others.

Well, I can do that, which you pointed out by looking at how, it is in Denmark. We don't have a problem with humans. We have a "problem" with certain sub-cultures regardless of religion as such. Now right now, yes, certain sub-groups of Muslims are in the news as negative news. But if you look closer it is never per se about the religion and it always involve the problem of the "other". In the end it is psychology in part as it is as much not just what is done, but also how it is viewed upon.
 
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