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Exodus 34:19-20 -- Please explain what these verses actually mean

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
And please, try to be rigorous in your analysis, not just make crap up that helps you feel good about your beliefs.

Exodus 34:19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed."
When I read these words, it speaks of sacrifice -- of giving up something. That is the meaning of "no one is to appear before my empty-handed." Pay up, folks.

Clearly, the "firstborn males of your livestock" seems to infer sacrifice. This is reinforced by verse 20, which acknowledges that, hey, donkeys are kind of costly so you might replace it with a much cheaper lamb. But the word "redeem" poses a problem. While it might mean "set aside" (for what purpose? If you can't use it, who will?) the suggestion that "if you do not redeem it, break its neck" suggests strongly that we're talking about here is sacrifice. And if that is the case, then how do we proceed to the next sentence, "redeem all your firstborn sons?"

 
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King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
And please, try to be rigorous in your analysis, not just make crap up that helps you feel good about your beliefs.

Genesis 34:19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed."
When I read these words, it speaks of sacrifice -- of giving up something. That is the meaning of "no one is to appear before my empty-handed." Pay up, folks.

Clearly, the "firstborn males of your livestock" seems to infer sacrifice. This is reinforced by verse 20, which acknowledges that, hey, donkeys are kind of costly so you might replace it with a much cheaper lamb. But the word "redeem" poses a problem. While it might mean "set aside" (for what purpose? If you can't use it, who will?) the suggestion that "if you do not redeem it, break its neck" suggests strongly that we're talking about here is sacrifice. And if that is the case, then how do we proceed to the next sentence, "redeem all your firstborn sons?"

Aren’t u atheist?
Lol
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
well, weren't they originally singled out for a priest or temple service kind of role, before the levites? I don't know exactly, it's been a while since I looked at the technical details. I think it was a generality in the ancient world that the firstborn was regarded as higher in the hierarchy, and got more of the inheritance. See Deut 21:17 for example. Incidentally, I was also struck by this seeming to implicitly be the case in the saga of ragnar lothbrok, which I had just read. In that book, all of Ivar the boneless's brothers implicitly seem to have to respect his decisions, since he was born first..
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And please, try to be rigorous in your analysis, not just make crap up that helps you feel good about your beliefs.

Genesis 34:19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed."
When I read these words, it speaks of sacrifice -- of giving up something. That is the meaning of "no one is to appear before my empty-handed." Pay up, folks.

Clearly, the "firstborn males of your livestock" seems to infer sacrifice. This is reinforced by verse 20, which acknowledges that, hey, donkeys are kind of costly so you might replace it with a much cheaper lamb. But the word "redeem" poses a problem. While it might mean "set aside" (for what purpose? If you can't use it, who will?) the suggestion that "if you do not redeem it, break its neck" suggests strongly that we're talking about here is sacrifice. And if that is the case, then how do we proceed to the next sentence, "redeem all your firstborn sons?"

Im not sure, redeem your donkey with a lamb sounds like save your donkey from having it's neck broken with a lamb sacrifice. So perhaps they are saying sacrifice a lamb in the place of your firstborn sons.
I'm not sure if it is clear enough on what to do with any firstborn sons that are not redeemed, but killing a child for disobeying it's parents would be a sort of sacrifice to a God, so it wouldn't surprise me if they considered non-redeemed firstborn sons worthy of having their neck broken, however the text doesn't explicitly say redeem your sons as you would a donkey, so one can't be too certain that they were neck breakers of their own children.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And please, try to be rigorous in your analysis, not just make crap up that helps you feel good about your beliefs.

Genesis 34:19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed."
When I read these words, it speaks of sacrifice -- of giving up something. That is the meaning of "no one is to appear before my empty-handed." Pay up, folks.

Clearly, the "firstborn males of your livestock" seems to infer sacrifice. This is reinforced by verse 20, which acknowledges that, hey, donkeys are kind of costly so you might replace it with a much cheaper lamb. But the word "redeem" poses a problem. While it might mean "set aside" (for what purpose? If you can't use it, who will?) the suggestion that "if you do not redeem it, break its neck" suggests strongly that we're talking about here is sacrifice. And if that is the case, then how do we proceed to the next sentence, "redeem all your firstborn sons?"

Are you sure you got your Bible reference correct?
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
And please, try to be rigorous in your analysis, not just make crap up that helps you feel good about your beliefs.

Genesis 34:19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed."
When I read these words, it speaks of sacrifice -- of giving up something. That is the meaning of "no one is to appear before my empty-handed." Pay up, folks.

Clearly, the "firstborn males of your livestock" seems to infer sacrifice. This is reinforced by verse 20, which acknowledges that, hey, donkeys are kind of costly so you might replace it with a much cheaper lamb. But the word "redeem" poses a problem. While it might mean "set aside" (for what purpose? If you can't use it, who will?) the suggestion that "if you do not redeem it, break its neck" suggests strongly that we're talking about here is sacrifice. And if that is the case, then how do we proceed to the next sentence, "redeem all your firstborn sons?"

Its a tax code. The tax are used for various things. People in this don't have pay checks and the IRS, but they have other forms of accounting for income to be taxed. Rather than paychecks or stock valuations this tax is calculated based upon livestock and number of wives with sons. The taxes are handled by the temple authorities.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Damn! I tried to correct my reference, but apparently I blew it! Not Genesis, Exodus 34:19.

My apologies to everyone I confused. Hey, I'm old. (Pitiful excuse, but it's all I've got.)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Damn! I tried to correct my reference, but apparently I blew it! Not Genesis, Exodus 34:19.

My apologies to everyone I confused. Hey, I'm old. (Pitiful excuse, but it's all I've got.)

19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

Obviously God was an early fan of Keanu Reeves.
 

Batya

Always Forward
And please, try to be rigorous in your analysis, not just make crap up that helps you feel good about your beliefs.

Genesis 34:19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed."
When I read these words, it speaks of sacrifice -- of giving up something. That is the meaning of "no one is to appear before my empty-handed." Pay up, folks.

Clearly, the "firstborn males of your livestock" seems to infer sacrifice. This is reinforced by verse 20, which acknowledges that, hey, donkeys are kind of costly so you might replace it with a much cheaper lamb. But the word "redeem" poses a problem. While it might mean "set aside" (for what purpose? If you can't use it, who will?) the suggestion that "if you do not redeem it, break its neck" suggests strongly that we're talking about here is sacrifice. And if that is the case, then how do we proceed to the next sentence, "redeem all your firstborn sons?"

You are correct that the animals are too be sacrificed, lambs, cows and goats. The reason donkeys aren't sacrificed had nothing to do with cost, but rather because they are considered unclean and are unlawful to sacrifice. Hence they are redeemed instead, as you can see in
Numbers 18:15-18:

15 “Everything that first opens the womb of all flesh, which they bring to the Lord, whether man or beast, shall be yours; nevertheless the firstborn of man you shall surely redeem, and the firstborn of unclean animals you shall redeem. 16 And those redeemed of the devoted things you shall redeem when one month old, according to your valuation, for five shekels of silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, which is twenty gerahs. 17 But the firstborn of a cow, the firstborn of a sheep, or the firstborn of a goat you shall not redeem[clean animals, therefore to be sacrificed, not redeemed]; they are holy. You shall sprinkle their blood on the altar, and burn their fat as an offering made by fire for a sweet aroma to the Lord. 18 And their flesh shall be yours, just as the wave breast and the right thigh are yours.

The concept of redemption in the bible is I think an important one, something that I'd like to study more, but I think there is a deeper picture here than just, hey, I want every first lamb, donkey, and child. The first time it mentions reserving the first born for YHWH is in Exodus 13, right after the death of all the firstborn of man and beast in Egypt, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is a tie-in somehow with that. But according to my understanding, originally, it was going to be the firstborn Israelites who would be the priests, or function in that capacity in some way. Then, after the incident with the golden calf and Israel's infidelity toward YHWH, the Levites were the ones who stood up and chose God over even family and friends, and for that reason (and perhaps other reasons that I'm forgetting or am not aware of yet), YHWH chose them rather than the firstborns, though the firstborn children were still to be redeemed. See Exodus 32:26-29.

Numbers 3:11-13
11 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 12 “Now behold, I Myself have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of every firstborn who opens the womb among the children of Israel. Therefore the Levites shall be Mine, 13 because all the firstborn are Mine. On the day that I struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, I sanctified to Myself all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast. They shall be Mine: I am the Lord.”

This process is further explained in numbers 3:40-51.
Anyways, I hope this makes some sense. There is no reason to think, though, that the firstborn sons were to be sacrificed, which I think is what you were inferring.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
And please, try to be rigorous in your analysis, not just make crap up that helps you feel good about your beliefs.

Genesis 34:19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed."
When I read these words, it speaks of sacrifice -- of giving up something. That is the meaning of "no one is to appear before my empty-handed." Pay up, folks.

Clearly, the "firstborn males of your livestock" seems to infer sacrifice. This is reinforced by verse 20, which acknowledges that, hey, donkeys are kind of costly so you might replace it with a much cheaper lamb. But the word "redeem" poses a problem. While it might mean "set aside" (for what purpose? If you can't use it, who will?) the suggestion that "if you do not redeem it, break its neck" suggests strongly that we're talking about here is sacrifice. And if that is the case, then how do we proceed to the next sentence, "redeem all your firstborn sons?"

You just needed a sacrifice for your firstborn son if you couldn't afford a lamb you could use two turtledoves. If you don't sacrifice then there was no stipulation to kill your son if that's what you are thinking. I think the priests would probably demand you pay up if they found out or you wouldn't be allowed to worship at the temple.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
According to the Mosaic Law, donkeys / asses were unclean animals; they were not acceptable scarifies to Jehovah. But, since all firstborn males belonged to God, as per the Law, it had to be redeemed by a sheep, an acceptable animal for sacrifice. But if the firstborn donkey’s owner had no sheep, that donkey still could never used by the owner (it belonged to Jehovah); therefore, it’s neck was broken.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Hey, that's why I'm here -- fun! And if we learn anything in the meantime, that's probably not a bad thing, eh?


In the first sentence of your OP, you accuse your potential interlocutors of “making up crap”. That’s before anyone’s even responded.

This doesn’t strike me as the attitude of someone willing to learn anything from those he is trying to engage with. Rather, it sounds like contempt prior to investigation, a principle which, according to Herbert Spencer, “cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.”
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
According to the Mosaic Law, donkeys / asses were unclean animals; they were not acceptable scarifies to Jehovah. But, since all firstborn males belonged to God, as per the Law, it had to be redeemed by a sheep, an acceptable animal for sacrifice. But if the firstborn donkey’s owner had no sheep, that donkey still could never used by the owner (it belonged to Jehovah); therefore, it’s neck was broken.
Which is totally cruel, to break the neck of a donkey just because its owner couldn't afford sheep.

And not just cruel to the donkey, also cruel to the owner of the donkey who probably needed the donkey for his livelihood in my opinion.
 
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