Existence arising out of non-existence

[Aupmanyav]

That Nasadiya Sukta talks of existence arising out of non-existence is well known. Here is another hymn which says the same:

"Brahmaṇah patiretā saṃ karmāra ivādhamat l devānāmpūrvye yuge asataḥ sadajāyata ll
Devānāṃ yuge prathame.asataḥ sadajāyata l tadāśhā anvajāyanta taduttānapadah pari ll

These Brahmaṇaspati produced with blast and smelting, like a Smith; existence, in an earlier age of Gods, from non-existence sprang.
Existence, in the earliest age of Gods, from non-existence sprang; thereafter were the regions born. This sprang from the Productive Power.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10072.htm

 

[George-ananda]

That Nasadiya Sukta talks of existence arising out of non-existence is well known. Here is another hymn which says the same:

"Brahmaṇah patiretā saṃ karmāra ivādhamat l devānāmpūrvye yuge asataḥ sadajāyata ll
Devānāṃ yuge prathame.asataḥ sadajāyata l tadāśhā anvajāyanta taduttānapadah pari ll

These Brahmaṇaspati produced with blast and smelting, like a Smith; existence, in an earlier age of Gods, from non-existence sprang.
Existence, in the earliest age of Gods, from non-existence sprang; thereafter were the regions born. This sprang from the Productive Power.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10072.htm

Springing 'from the Productive Power' and from 'non-existence' seems like incompatible statements. 'Brahman' (as in 'advaita' as opposed to 'aupvaita') sounds like suspect #1 to me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have quoted from RigVeda. Surely, interpretations differ. They are talking about some power beyond the non-existence.

 

[Madhuri]

It would need to be clearer what is meant by 'existence' as it also implies that there is something already in existence; the Productive Power. Chances are it is referring exclusively to material/physical existence.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That Nasadiya Sukta talks of existence arising out of non-existence is well known. Here is another hymn which says the same:

"Brahmaṇah patiretā saṃ karmāra ivādhamat l devānāmpūrvye yuge asataḥ sadajāyata ll
Devānāṃ yuge prathame.asataḥ sadajāyata l tadāśhā anvajāyanta taduttānapadah pari ll

These Brahmaṇaspati produced with blast and smelting, like a Smith; existence, in an earlier age of Gods, from non-existence sprang.
Existence, in the earliest age of Gods, from non-existence sprang; thereafter were the regions born. This sprang from the Productive Power.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10072.htm

It sounds like a creation myth to me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It sounds like a creation myth to me.

Yes, there are many hymns which relate to creation in RigVeda, However, the process described is not uniform in all the hymns. This particular hymn is important because the last two verses mention that there were seven suns (sons of God Mother, Aditi), but the eighth was born unformed who was changed into human kind who would be born and die. There are views that this describes a continuous day for seven months in the Arctic homeland of Aryans where sun-light failed in the eighth month (counting from March, in October). That is when the a two or three month long night came and the specific 'night sacrifices' ('Ratri Kratu') were started. This is known as Samhain in Irish mythology and among the Welsh as Nos Galangaeaf, or the Night of the winter Calends. After all, January and February were added to the Roman calendar only in 700 BC by Emperor Numa, otherwise the old Roman calendar had only 10 months of 304 days.

 

[atanu]

Springing 'from the Productive Power' and from 'non-existence' seems like incompatible statements. 'Brahman' (as in 'advaita' as opposed to 'aupvaita') sounds like suspect #1 to me.

It would need to be clearer what is meant by 'existence' as it also implies that there is something already in existence; the Productive Power. Chances are it is referring exclusively to material/physical existence.

From Satapatha Brahamana

“SIXTH KANDA.
THE AGNI/vTAYANA, or BUILDING OF THE
FIRE-ALTAR.
CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE. First Adhyaya. First BRAHMAivA.

1. Verily, in the beginning there was here the non-existent. As to this they say, ' What was that non-existent? The seven rishis, assuredly,—it is they that were the non-existent. As to this they say, 'Who were those seven rishis? The seven rishis, doubtless, were the vital airs: inasmuch as before (the existence of) this universe, they, desiring it, wore themselves out (rish) with toil and austerity, therefore they are called the rishis.

2. This same vital air in the midst doubtless is Indra. He, by his power of (indriya), kindled those (other) vital airs from the midst; and inasmuch as he kindled (indh), he is the kindler (indha) : the kindler indeed,—him they call 'Indra' mystically”

Excerpt From: Eggeling, Julius, 1842-1918. “The Satapatha-brâhmana, according to the text of the Mâdhyandina school.” Oxford The Clarendon Press, 1882-1900. iBooks.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes, there are many hymns which relate to creation in RigVeda, However, the process described is not uniform in all the hymns. This particular hymns is important because the last two verses mention that there were seven suns (sons of God Mother, Aditi), but the eighth was born unformed who was changed into human kind who would be born and die. There are views that this describes a continuous day for seven months in the Arctic homeland of Aryans where sun-light failed in the eighth month (counting from March, in October). That is when the a two or three month long night came and the specific 'night sacrifices' ('Ratri Kratu') were started. This is known as Samhain in Irish mythology and among the Welsh as Nos Galangaeaf, or the Night of the winter Calends. After all, January and February were added to the Roman calendar only in 700 BC by Emperor Numa, otherwise the old Roman calendar had only 10 months of 304 days.

I see. I think in Buddhism samsara is viewed as extending back indefinitely through many eons of contraction and expansion.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

That Nasadiya Sukta talks of existence arising out of non-existence is well known. Here is another hymn which says the same:

"Brahmaṇah patiretā saṃ karmāra ivādhamat l devānāmpūrvye yuge asataḥ sadajāyata ll
Devānāṃ yuge prathame.asataḥ sadajāyata l tadāśhā anvajāyanta taduttānapadah pari ll

These Brahmaṇaspati produced with blast and smelting, like a Smith; existence, in an earlier age of Gods, from non-existence sprang.
Existence, in the earliest age of Gods, from non-existence sprang; thereafter were the regions born. This sprang from the Productive Power.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10072.htm

Namaste,

I did not know the Nasadya Sukta (Na -not-Asad-non existence) talked about existence from non existence, where does it say that?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have posted it many a times, here is once more:

सतो बन्धुमसति निरविन्दन हृदि प्रतीष्याकवयो मनीषा ll
Sato bandhumasati niravindan hṛidi pratīṣhyākavayo manīṣhā ll
Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation, Verse 4.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

I have posted it many a times, here is once more:

सतो बन्धुमसति निरविन्दन हृदि प्रतीष्याकवयो मनीषा ll
Sato bandhumasati niravindan hṛidi pratīṣhyākavayo manīṣhā ll
Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation, Verse 4.

Namaste,

Maybe you missed the vary first Mantra, it says then was no non existence and nor was the existence.

nāsad āsīn no sad āsīt tadānīṁ nāsīd rajo no vyomā paro yat | kim āvarīvaḥ kuha kasya śarmann ambhaḥ kim āsīd gahanaṁ gabhīram || 1 ||

Then even nothingness was not, nor existence, There was no air then, nor the heavens beyond it. What covered it? Where was it? In whose keeping Was there then cosmic water, in depths un-fathomed?

Mantra 4 states "sato bandhum asati", Existence/truth/being is related to non existence/untruth/non being, but it does not say that it all came from non existence, nor that existence arises out of non existence, In this Sukta Sat and Asat are both denied, therefore we can say that there was "Something", which cannot be classified as either True or UnTrue, either being or non being, neither existing as we know it but not absolute non existence.

But i think we should take the lesson from the Last 2 Mantra, before we go an assume that existence arises out of non existence, we should consider this:

ko addhā veda ka iha pra vocat kuta ājātā kuta iyaṁ visrṣ̥ ṭiḥ |
arvāg devā asya visarjanenāthā ko veda yata ābab || 6 ||

But, after all, who knows, and who can say Whence it all came, and how creation happened? The gods themselves are later than creation, so who knows truly whence it has arisen?


iyaṁ visr̥ ṣṭir yata ābabhūva yadi vā dadhe yadi vā na |
yo asyādhyakṣaḥ parame vyoman so aṅga veda yadi vā na veda || 7 ||

Whence all creation had its origin?, he, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not?, he, who surveys it all from highest heaven, he knows - or maybe even he does not know.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Kinda raises the question as to what exactly is non-existence for starters, by which existance is based upon?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Kinda raises the question as to what exactly is non-existence for starters, by which existance is based upon?

Answers perhaps in 22nd Century, not in our life-time.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Kinda raises the question as to what exactly is non-existence for starters, by which existance is based upon?

Namaste,

I think existence is relative to non existence and vice versa, we cant have one without the other. To me if we claim non-existence it is always in relation to something (that exists) not being in one place and time in space, i think there is no such thing as absolute non existence of anything, we would not have come up with the idea of non existence without having the experience of existence in the first place.

Anyways just my thoughts.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is a science theory in making. Existence and non-existence together, bubble universes. Outside the universes, no existence.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

That is a science theory in making. Existence and non-existence together, bubble universes. Outside the universes, no existence.

Namaste,

Maybe No such thing as "outside the Universe", either.

Ill let you meditate on that..

 

[HarihOm]

Namaste

What is meant by existence and non existence. How can something which has no existence make existence or how can existence come from non existence, how can something that exists cease to exists. Lest define properly what is meant by existence and non existence, hopefully we can agree on the context and explore this very interesting subject.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Kindly meditate on what evidence says, for or against: https://www.google.co.in/webhp?sour...IN576&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Bubble+universe
For example: https://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/news/universe-bubble-lets-check or http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0308/resources_who.html
Don't check newspaper reports.

Let us define properly what is meant by existence and non existence, hopefully we can agree on the context and explore this very interesting subject.

Try, any one of the two.

 

[HarihOm]

Namaste Aupmanyav Ji,

Well I am not the one opening the thread . I want that a broader definition with meaning that can be given to the words existence and non existence. These words by themselves mean very little. I exist because I was born, I cease to exist because I have died. Does existence stop after death, is existence only related to birth, is birth only to be considered coming from a fertile womb. Is Non existence an abstract reality devoid of anything that is arising in creative field. This is not a simple subject, are we going via Modern Science terms or Sanatana Dharma.

Pranam

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Kindly meditate on what evidence says, for or against: https://www.google.co.in/webhp?sour...IN576&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Bubble+universe
For example: https://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/news/universe-bubble-lets-check or http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0308/resources_who.html
Don't check newspaper reports.
Try, any one of the two.

Namaste,

hypothesis is not evidence, no evidence for anything as outside the Universe, i agree not yet but lets not jump to conclusions.

Here by universe i mean something similar to Cosmos, not just our visible space but everything beyond. So if the Universe is in a bubble then by Universe i mean all the bubbles and the space where the bubbles are, am not limiting my definition of Universe to just our visible area. my Universe is all of existence.

Dhanyavad