Evil?

[Buttercup]

I hear you Rhonda; all I can say is that I don't see it that way. I think the omniscient/omnipotent puzzle is unsolvable, just like the one about God making a rock too heavy for himself to lift.

It isn't unsolvable though.

Do you believe God made the universe and everything in it?? If so, how do you know this?

Do you believe God knew Jesus was going to die and sent him to earth anyway? If so, he is omniscient.

 

[lunamoth]

I believe that evil is a concept that is used for many destructive purposes.
It is a delusion that prevents us from having to execute our morality in a fair and just but ultimately difficult and exhausting way.

I would say that identifying the problem is an important step in dealing with it in a fair, just, mature way.

It is a shield that protects us by allowing us to ignore the similarities between ourselves and the unpleasant.

It would if you think all evil is outside yourself, but in one view at least (Christian) the idea is that evil runs through each of us. Something we each need to address. But then Christians are criticized for being too negative about human nature.

It is a barrier that separates us from others so that we might cut them loose rather than confront the emotionally arduous task of loving them.

This is unfortunately what some people do, label others as evil (notably President Bush in naming some countries an axis of evil). I think this is a very wrong and harmful thing to do, itself indicative of evil.

 

[Fluffy]

I would say that identifying the problem is an important step in dealing with it in a fair, just, mature way.

If labelling something as evil was truly equivalent to identifying a problem then it would not be a delusion. However, given the extent of emotional charge that is associated with the term along with a bundle of theological baggage, it is disputable whether this is really the case.

Evil is not used for any morally wrong act. There are plenty of things that we would describe as wrong and yet feel uncomfortable about replacing this description with the word "evil". Evil is reserved for excessively wrong acts. It is in this that lies the problem because often people don't appear to be able to handle excessively wrong acts very well and so the mere identification of an act as such is counter productive.

Whilst it may be true, and I certainly think so, that some acts are more wrong than others, I don't believe that this should be a factor that is considered when our minds turn to solution seeking. It is sufficient and efficient to identify a problem as requiring a solution.

It would if you think all evil is outside yourself, but in one view at least (Christian) the idea is that evil runs through each of us. Something we each need to address. But then Christians are criticized for being too negative about human nature.

The Christian view is not too negative for this mere observation but for its support of the idea that we are helpless without God to overcome it. Whilst it may be our responsibility to turn to God in the first place, by creating such a dependency, we fail to fulfil our potentials in becoming the best that we can be.

I don't believe that there is anything in human nature that is evil. I believe we either do evil or we don't. The point I was making here is that when we say "that is evil" we reject the idea that we could possibly have the capacity to do such an act. I believe that such a denial is unhealthy because it can lead to a person engaging in that act but that the person does not contain evil within them. The capacity to do evil is not the same as evil itself. Recognising that we have the capacity to do wrong is important and calling people and acts evil prevents this process from happening properly.

 

[lunamoth]

It isn't unsolvable though.

Do you believe God made the universe and everything in it?? If so, how do you know this?

I choose to 'believe' it because describes how I view my relationship to God. I say this by faith, not by logic.

Do you believe God knew Jesus was going to die and sent him to earth anyway? If so, he is omniscient.

Well, Jesus was fully human and all humans die, so yes, of course God knew Jesus would die. Did God know that Jesus would be brutally killed on the Cross? The Gospel stories indicate that God did know this by Gethesmane. Was it planned from the beginning of Creation? Some atonement theories suggest so but then there is no universally accepted atonement theory either.

But the reason it's not solvable isn't because there are no answers to those questions. It's not a logical, philosophical puzzle as if you can put God in a box or under a microscope. The Bible stories do not explain where evil comes from, the people who wrote the Bible did not know where evil comes from, and you and I don't know. You say it must be God because He's the Creator and I just say, I don't know. Language fails, logic fails. Very unsatisfactory, I know, but there it is.

Well, I tried writing a lot more but my brain is tired and I did not like it. Not sure it was worth the effort anyway. I'll see if I can find a way to say what I was trying tomorrow.


I've pointed out AE's thread on process theology before. I don't offer it as a definative answer, but it is one that intrigues me and addresses theodicy. The reason I don't say, "well, process theology explains it all!" is because even that statement lacks humility, makes God smaller, and suggests that I have some kind of final logical answer to your question and could turn it into a personal dogma, an inappropriate degree of certainty in the face of so much I really don't know. Logic and language fail, not least because we are trying to use symbols to describe something beyond our understanding.

 

[lunamoth]

I don't believe that there is anything in human nature that is evil. I believe we either do evil or we don't. The point I was making here is that when we say "that is evil" we reject the idea that we could possibly have the capacity to do such an act. I believe that such a denial is unhealthy because it can lead to a person engaging in that act but that the person does not contain evil within them. The capacity to do evil is not the same as evil itself. Recognising that we have the capacity to do wrong is important and calling people and acts evil prevents this process from happening properly.

All good points Fluffy. Just a comment on this last one. I don't think humans are evil but just as you say, we should not deny that each of us has the capacity to do evil. That's exactly how I understand the Christian perspective to be: that we are good, created good (beloved), but with the potential to do evil acts. Calling people evil is wrong, as I said above.

 

[Fluffy]

All good points Fluffy. Just a comment on this last one. I don't think humans are evil but just as you say, we should not deny that each of us has the capacity to do evil. That's exactly how I understand the Christian perspective to be: that we are good, created good (beloved), but with the potential to do evil acts. Calling people evil is wrong, as I said above.

In that case I agree with you and that Christian perspective of evil.

 

[Aasimar]

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (John 3)


7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[b] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. (1 John 4)

So is Jesus gone forever ? Last I checked, he's supposed to be still alive right? So he didn't lose him, he sent him on a temporary mission to earth.

 

[lunamoth]

So is Jesus gone forever ? Last I checked, he's supposed to be still alive right? So he didn't lose him, he sent him on a temporary mission to earth.

Yeah, if you don't accept that Jesus really was fully human and really was fully God and yet really died, it does not make sense. I can' argue with you there. I'm not much of a Christian apologist, am I?

 

[crystalonyx]

Homo sapiens was not created (good or evil) we evolved from other primate forms.
"Good" and "Evil" are simply constructs that are defined differently from one culture to another.

 

[Quath]

I think good and evil are subjective descriptions of motives. Take the case where a boy is helping an old woman across a street. Is this good, evil or neutral? We do not know until we know the boy's motive.

If the boy was worried about the woman and wanted to help her out, we would say it is good.
If the boy was just trying to score a merit badge and the woman was an ends to a mean, we would say it was neutral.
If the boy wanted to get the woman acoss the street because he knew there was a vicious dog nearby and wanted to see some carnage, this would be considered evil

But it is cultural as well. A thirty year old having sex with a fourteen year old is evil in today's culture but normal or good in ancient times. Slavery is evil today and was considered neutral or good in the past.

 

[Buttercup]

Well, Jesus was fully human and all humans die, so yes, of course God knew Jesus would die. Did God know that Jesus would be brutally killed on the Cross? The Gospel stories indicate that God did know this by Gethesmane. Was it planned from the beginning of Creation? Some atonement theories suggest so but then there is no universally accepted atonement theory either.

It's really not that complicated. Either one believes God sent Jesus to die or He did not. Or, you do not believe that premise at all.

If God sent Jesus to die for our salvation, clearly God is omniscient, even if he planned only 34 years ahead of time. If God is omniscient, (which the bible clearly implies over and over again) he created man with the capacity for evil knowing full well evil would be carried out.

Well, I tried writing a lot more but my brain is tired and I did not like it. Not sure it was worth the effort anyway. I'll see if I can find a way to say what I was trying tomorrow.

I understand for sure, happens to me all the time. I probably delete almost as much as I post.

 

[lunamoth]

It's really not that complicated.

It's not that complicated. God is love. God is the source of our being. God is no-thing but without God there is nothing.

 

[Buttercup]

Ok, I guess our conversation is over. I don't want to make you mad at me anyway.

Thanks for the fun though, I enjoyed it.

 

[lunamoth]

If God sent Jesus to die for our salvation, clearly God is omniscient, even if he planned only 34 years ahead of time.

I don't see how this requires God to be omniscient (defined as knowing the future). God could be acting freely based upon the choices made up to each and every second as time unfolds. The closer to the Cross one gets, the more inevitable the Cross becomes.

If God is omniscient, (which the bible clearly implies over and over again)

But there are many instances in the Bible where God clearly does not know everything.


Genesis 3: 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?" (God did not know what they had been up to) 10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid." 11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" (God does not know what they've been up to in the past, how could he know what they'd be up to in the future)

 

[Ringer]

But there are many instances in the Bible where God clearly does not know everything.


Genesis 3: 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?" (God did not know what they had been up to) 10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid." 11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" (God does not know what they've been up to in the past, how could he know what they'd be up to in the future)

I always looked at these questions as the same way that you'd ask your kids if they did something wrong. For instance, asking your kid, "Was that you that took that cookie from the cookie jar?". Of course you know that they took the cookie but by asking the question you give them a chance to confess what they did. I believe this is what God was doing. I don't have a doubt that he didn't know what was going on at that moment.

 

[lunamoth]

I always looked at these questions as the same way that you'd ask your kids if they did something wrong. For instance, asking your kid, "Was that you that took that cookie from the cookie jar?". Of course you know that they took the cookie but by asking the question you give them a chance to confess what they did. I believe this is what God was doing. I don't have a doubt that he didn't know what was going on at that moment.

As part of the story that's how I'd interpret it too. I think the creation story is a myth that is meant to tell how the Israelites saw the Creator and their relationship with him. I was just trying to make the point that using the Bible you can make a case pretty much any way you want, depending on how you interpret it.

 

[Ringer]

As part of the story that's how I'd interpret it too. I think the creation story is a myth that is meant to tell how the Israelites saw the Creator and their relationship with him. I was just trying to make the point that using the Bible you can make a case pretty much any way you want, depending on how you interpret it.

Fair enough. Sorry I didn't catch that. :foot:

 

[Quath]

I always looked at these questions as the same way that you'd ask your kids if they did something wrong. For instance, asking your kid, "Was that you that took that cookie from the cookie jar?". Of course you know that they took the cookie but by asking the question you give them a chance to confess what they did. I believe this is what God was doing. I don't have a doubt that he didn't know what was going on at that moment.

I have seen several variations of hoe people interpret this. One problem some Christians seem to have is that God is implying he does not know just as in your example, the parent acts like they do not know who took the cookie. So this would be a lie and it is hard for some to believe that God would lie or mislead.

Some Christians have tried to reconcile this to mean that God temporarily lost his power when man sinned.

Personally, I think the Garden story is not so much about original sin as about mankind learning its place between the gods and the animals. Animals have fur and clothes are like fur. Gods tended to be visualized as naked. In addition, Gods have immortality and great knowledge. So humanity is close, but misses these two qualities. It also says that the gods are worried that humans can become gods.

 

[credance]

I didn't read all the post (there are 118)so I am not sure whether this has already been mentioned.
I believe that humanity and evil are synonymous when comparing all other creatures. I know of no other species that that has the ability to experience erotic pleasure at the suffering of others.

 

[lunamoth]

I didn't read all the post (there are 118)so I am not sure whether this has already been mentioned.
I believe that humanity and evil are synonymous when comparing all other creatures. I know of no other species that that has the ability to experience erotic pleasure at the suffering of others.

Nope, I don't think the idea that humanity = evil has been brought up yet.