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"Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve"

Skwim

Veteran Member
"According to the Bible (Genesis 2:7), this is how humanity began: "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." God then called the man Adam, and later created Eve from Adam's rib.

Polls by Gallup and the Pew Research Center find that four out of 10 Americans believe this account. It's a central tenet for much of conservative Christianity, from evangelicals to confessional churches such as the Christian Reformed Church.

But now some conservative scholars are saying publicly that they can no longer believe the Genesis account. Asked how likely it is that we all descended from Adam and Eve, Dennis Venema, a biologist at Trinity Western University, replies: "That would be against all the genomic evidence that we've assembled over the last 20 years, so not likely at all."

Venema says there is no way we can be traced back to a single couple. He says with the mapping of the human genome, it's clear that modern humans emerged from other primates as a large population — long before the Genesis time frame of a few thousand years ago. And given the genetic variation of people today, he says scientists can't get that population size below 10,000 people at any time in our evolutionary history.

To get down to just two ancestors, Venema says, "You would have to postulate that there's been this absolutely astronomical mutation rate that has produced all these new variants in an incredibly short period of time. Those types of mutation rates are just not possible. It would mutate us out of existence."
source


So, is there a real change a-brewing here or not?

.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
That looks like evolution belief is going up.

Imagine this was our Miss USA answers from several states some years ago.
Apologies, if you belief in creationism you can just say beautiful women can have looks and smarts as well.
 

Srivijaya

Active Member
Dennis Venema, a biologist at Trinity Western University, replies: "That would be against all the genomic evidence that we've assembled over the last 20 years, so not likely at all."
A biologist at a university??? Sounds like he might even believe in evolution.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
"According to the Bible (Genesis 2:7), this is how humanity began: "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." God then called the man Adam, and later created Eve from Adam's rib.
I don´t think the biblical interpretation of the human origin is especially good. In many other cultural stories of creation, everything is created by two prime forces/qualities, namely a female and a male "deity" of creation.
Of course the Jewish/Christian completely have discarded the female part of the creation and have personalized the creation story to the one male deity which makes it difficult to explain the entire creation in a natural way.
Read for instants the Egyptian story of creation, the Ogdoad, where everything (in the ancient known part of the Universe, the Milky Way, is made via 4 male and 4 female opposite but complementary qualities - Ogdoad (Egyptian) - Wikipedia
 

tempogain

Member
So, is there a real change a-brewing here or not?

I think so. Not overnight, but certainly statistics show change is happening in the US regardless. Dennis Venema is associated with Biologos, Francis Collins' organization, which tries to promote compatibility of Christian ideas with science in general and evolution in particular. It seems like a bit of an uphill battle for them, but I think they will make progress, defined IMO as getting archaic ideas obviously in conflict with established fact out of their established place, while maintaining a context of personal and communal religious belief for those who desire it. The time is right. As has been noted above, for many Christians these things aren't an issue (it certainly wasn't during my Catholic upbringing), but for many in the US certainly they still are.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
"According to the Bible (Genesis 2:7), this is how humanity began: "The Lord God formed man of

But now some conservative scholars are saying publicly that they can no longer believe the Genesis account. Asked how likely it is that we all descended from Adam and Eve, Dennis Venema, a biologist at Trinity Western University, replies: "That would be against all the genomic evidence that we've assembled over the last 20 years, so not likely at all."

Venema says there is no way we can be traced back to a single couple. He says with the mapping of the human genome, it's clear that modern humans emerged from other primates as a large population — long before the Genesis time frame of a few thousand years ago. And given the genetic variation of people today, he says scientists can't get that population size below 10,000 people at any time in our evolutionary history.

To get down to just two ancestors, Venema says, "You would have to postulate that there's been this absolutely astronomical mutation rate that has produced all these new variants in an incredibly short period of time. Those types of mutation rates are just not possible. It would mutate us out of existence."
source


So, is there a real change a-brewing here or not?

.

I don't think so. As in all institutions, you have a variety of people. This is more likely an infiltrated liberal that is speaking up. :)

As your source said, "Rana and others believe in a literal, historical Adam and Eve for many reasons."
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I don't think so. As in all institutions, you have a variety of people. This is more likely an infiltrated liberal that is speaking up. :)

As your source said, "Rana and others believe in a literal, historical Adam and Eve for many reasons."
Yes, they are in ever worsening order: Ignorance, fear, dishonesty, lunacy and idiocy. For most it is just a matter of fear and ignorance. Now some may put dishonesty down as the worst reason to believe the Genesis myths. At any rate it is usually a combination of those "reasons" By the way, by pointing out that those are the reasons does not mean that all creationists are idiots. Don't make the false assumption that one reason applies to all.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Yes, they are in ever worsening order: Ignorance, fear, dishonesty, lunacy and idiocy. For most it is just a matter of fear and ignorance. Now some may put dishonesty down as the worst reason to believe the Genesis myths. At any rate it is usually a combination of those "reasons" By the way, by pointing out that those are the reasons does not mean that all creationists are idiots. Don't make the false assumption that one reason applies to all.

Of course not. Some are communists, others are morally weak or simply insane! :D
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So, we have a biologist at a Christian Liberal Arts college accepting that Genesis is allegory, and you feel the need to use the word "infiltrated".

This is more likely an enlightened Christian that is speaking up.
:D

Just saying... :D

Dr. Fazele Rana is a biochemist and disagrees. What can I say? :)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It is a Christian who understands the genetic evidence.

That is wonderful. The geneaology seems simple enough to me. It is always amazing (to me) how we can call it a "myth" and give names of the people all the way to Jesus Christ.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
:D You do sound like that. Are you a flat earther? :D
Why would you ask? Creationists are only one small step away from being Flat Earthers. They read the Bible a little more literally than you do.

And what makes you think that I sound like that? I am not saying that all of those traits apply to you but some definitely do.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
That is wonderful. The geneaology seems simple enough to me. It is always amazing (to me) how we can call it a "myth" and give names of the people all the way to Jesus Christ.

To me, it is endlessly fascinating to see how people can think that something written in a book trumps the facts found in the reality.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Why would you ask? Creationists are only one small step away from being Flat Earthers. They read the Bible a little more literally than you do.
Because no matter what evidence we give...you still deny it--just like the flat-earthers
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
To me, it is endlessly fascinating to see how people can think that something written in a book trumps the facts found in the reality.

Yes... that always happens... two people look at the same information and come to different conclussions. In this case Dr Rana vs the other person.
 
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