Eternal hell or annihillation make no sense

[Ignatius A]

@Starlight claim was eternal punishment doesn't exist. I was just pointing out that a God that:

Kicks two people out of Eden forever and punishes all there kin for one mistake

Destroys all of Sodom and Gomora and turns the wife into salt

Destroys the whole world animals and people with water.

Even his son states if you commit a sin with you hand, you best cut it off.

I could go on but you get the jist

This God has no problem with infinite torture in hell for sinners

People make choices. There are consequences for choices but sadly people seem to now believe there should be no consequences for their choices. If you hold people responsible for their choices theses days it's considered "judgement".

The larger point however is that while there are consequences for our choices God offers us mercy but we have to choose it. That means not living the way we want doing whatever the hell we please. What gets me is God let's you do whatever you like but then you blame him for being in the pile of **** you find yourself in because of of it.

 

[bobhikes]

Do you really believe all of that?

I've read the bible and there's even more that shows God has no pity for sinners

 

[Ignatius A]

I've read the bible and there's even more that shows God has no pity for sinners

If you did read it you didn't read it very well or only half of it. You are right though God has no pity for sinners for they've made their choices. However God does have boundless mercy on repentant sinners. They've made different choices.

 

[Soandso]

Honestly, I have to agree for the most part. Eternal torment as a punishment just doesn't make sense - especially from an all good and loving god. As for annihilationism, meh... By the time I read up on that, I was already well on my way out of Christianity. It's not a compelling concept for me

 

[Ignatius A]

Honestly, I have to agree for the most part. Eternal torment as a punishment just doesn't make sense - especially from an all good and loving god. As for annihilationism, meh... By the time I read up on that, I was already well on my way out of Christianity. It's not a compelling concept for me

God is all good and loving. You choose eternal punishment for yourself not him.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've read the bible and there's even more that shows God has no pity for sinners

Well, since we are all sinners I guess that means that God has no pity on believers or nonbelievers.
I'm not sure what you mean by pity though?

 

[Ponder This]

Why?

Because or actions and sins is finitive. Infinitive punishment for finitive sins is not just.

God is loving and just. So my conclusion is that eternal hell or annhilation of the soul do not exist. That is my belief

What is your thoughts about this?

Hypothetically, if you were in a spaceship and you made the unfortunate decision to pilot your ship too close to a black hole, then would not the consequence of your finitive action be the loss of yourself and that spaceship into the blackhole for an eternity?

And really, every action, once performed becomes a part of the past, and can the past ever change? Or is not the past forever as it was? Where is the time traveling device that allows you to go back and change something that happened in the past? The past is infinitively as it was.

Why, really, should it be illogical that infinitive consequences may follow from finitive actions?

The argument is that infinitive punishment is not just. But without infinitive punishment, is there any justice at all? If a person can perform all manner of sins and the only consequence is that he racks up a larger and larger debt (a debt that can always be paid off no matter how sinful he is), then he can simply borrow from the future infinitively to perform all manner of sins. Justice is abnegated. What did the sinner really have to give up in order to commit his sins?

But in reality, we know that real debts can reach the point where they are too large to ever be paid off. At that point, you are either in debt forever or your debt must be forgiven, wholly or in part, in order for you to ever be released from it.

That God is just means that there is infinitive punishment. That God is loving means that forgiveness is made possible.

 

[Ignatius A]

Well, since we are all sinners I guess that means that God has no pity on believers or nonbelievers.
I'm not sure what you mean by pity though?

Ive had these discussions before and generally it means I should be free to do whatever I want ang God should judge me.

 

[Trailblazer]

God is all good and loving. You choose eternal punishment for yourself not him.

What I believe is that we punish ourselves by our own choices, God does not punish us.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings, p. 339

 

[Ignatius A]

Hypothetically, if you were in a spaceship and you made the unfortunate decision to pilot your ship too close to a black hole, then would not the consequence of your finitive action be the loss of yourself and that spaceship into the blackhole for an eternity?

And really, every action, once performed becomes a part of the past, and can the past ever change? Or is not the past forever as it was? Where is the time traveling device that allows you to go back and change something that happened in the past? The past is infinitively as it was.

Why, really, should it be illogical that infinitive consequences may follow from finitive actions?

The argument is that infinitive punishment is not just. But without infinitive punishment, is there any justice at all? If a person can perform all manner of sins and the only consequence is that he racks up a larger and larger debt (a debt that can always be paid off no matter how sinful he is), then he can simply borrow from the future infinitively to perform all manner of sins. Justice is abnegated. What did the sinner really have to give up in order to commit his sins?

But in reality, we know that real debts can reach the point where they are too large to ever be paid off. At that point, you are either in debt forever or your debt must be forgiven, wholly or in part, in order for you to ever be released from it.

That God is just means that there is infinitive punishment. That God is loving means that forgiveness is made possible.

Well stated

 

[Trailblazer]

Ive had these discussions before and generally it means I should be free to do whatever I want ang God should judge me.

Do you think that atheists believe that God should judge them, or that God should not judge them, if they do whatever they want to?

 

[Ignatius A]

Y

What I believe is that we punish ourselves by our own choices, God does not punish us.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339

Yep

 

[Ignatius A]

Do you think that atheists believe that God should judge them, or that God should not judge them, if they do whatever they want to?

They think if God was loving they could do whatever they want but never be held responsible

 

[Trailblazer]

The argument is that infinitive punishment is not just. But without infinitive punishment, is there any justice at all? If a person can perform all manner of sins and the only consequence is that he racks up a larger and larger debt (a debt that can always be paid off no matter how sinful he is), then he can simply borrow from the future infinitively to perform all manner of sins. Justice is abnegated. What did the sinner really have to give up in order to commit his sins?

You said infinitive. Did you mean to say infinite punishment, punishment that lasts forever?

But in reality, we know that real debts can reach the point where they are too large to ever be paid off. At that point, you are either in debt forever or your debt must be forgiven, wholly or in part, in order for you to ever be released from it.

Tell me about it. I have a tenant who owed me about $18,000 in the fall of 2021. His debt could have never been paid off and I was not going to forgive that debt but luckily I got all the money from a federal government program for landlords affected by Covid.

That God is just means that there is infinitive punishment. That God is loving means that forgiveness is made possible.

So you mean to say that there is infinite punishment because some people deserve that, but forgiveness is possible because God is loving?

 

[Trailblazer]

They think if God was loving they could do whatever they want but never be held responsible

While the exact opposite is true. A loving God would NOT want people doing whatever they want to do since that is NOT in their best interest.

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

 

[Soandso]

God is all good and loving. You choose eternal punishment for yourself not him.

Why would a good and loving god create a place of eternal torment in the first place? Why would the only place, outside of his good graces, be this place by default? Where is the goodness and love in torment that never, ever ends

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would a good and loving god create a place of eternal torment in the first place? Why would the only place, outside of his good graces, be this place by default? Where is the goodness and love in torment that never, ever ends

Hell is not a place, it is not a geographical location. Hell is a state of the soul that is separated from God, not physically but in one's heart.
One can be in hell in this life as well as in the afterlife.

The way to avoid hell is to love God. The way to get out of hell if you land there is to cry out to God for help...
I know, because I used to hate God and I was in my own self-created hell. For years I cried out to God for help and the help finally came.

 

[Spice]

IMO, which I know I'm not able to express completely, heaven and hell are both on earth here and now. If we seek the treasures of the material world in selfish abundance, we are putting ourselves in hell. If we turn internally and seek to draw God's goodness in abundance from our eternal spirits to share in this material plane, we are living in heaven. But we are one -- one in God, and in each other, IMO, so therefore as long as a single eternal spirit dabbles in hell, we all suffer for it. It is our destiny to bring heaven to earth completely as was intended in the Garden of Eden. Humankind has greatly evolved in intelligence since the "flood" when Homo Sapiens (IMO) were the only ones left, and when they reached the level of the Greek and Roman Empires, we had earned our Guide in Christ. From His death and resurrection, IMO, our eternal essences, too, have died of the material world, judged on our progress, and been reborn to continue towards destiny, paying "every copper" due, for as many incarnations as necessary for the ONE to be pure again, and Eden will be re-established as the New Jerusalem of prophecy, and "hell" to be no more... Heaven on Earth.

 

[Soandso]

Hell is not a place, it is not a geographical location. Hell is a state of the soul that is separated from God, not physically but in one's heart.
One can be in hell in this life as well as in the afterlife.

The way to avoid hell is to love God. The way to get out of hell if you land there is to cry out to God for help...
I know, because I used to hate God and I was in my own self-created hell. For years I cried out to God for help and the help finally came.

I'm sorry to hear that you experienced a self created hell; I can empathize with what that feels like considering my own experiences. Interestingly for me the closer I was to god, the stronger that negativity was. It wasn't until I stepped away and walked a different path when I eventually found peace. Everyone has their own path, though, and I'm glad you found one that gives you peace as well

 

[bobhikes]

Well, since we are all sinners I guess that means that God has no pity on believers or nonbelievers.
I'm not sure what you mean by pity though?

He doesn't, it is only through his Son that the doors of heaven have opened, and his son's requirements aren't the easiest to follow.