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Eternal damnation. Why?
- Thread starter Shtef
- Start date
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Archaeopteryx said:
Not a good marketing tool, IMO.
I don't think that you can prove that it was installed for the purpose of gaining greater influence, but the doctrine most certainly is and was used to exert whatever agenda the church has. Augustine is the man who is pretty much responsible for the creation of our popular concept of hell, and he honestly believed it. He seems like a humble bishop to me and not a power broker. Judge for yourself: his writings are widely available online.
www.ccel.org
Augustine, Saint (354-430) [Author Info]
City of God
Confessiones [Latin]
Confessions and Enchiridion, newly translated and edited by Albert C. Outler
Confessions of Saint Augustine
Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love
On Christian Doctrine, in Four Books
Sermones [Latin]
Earthling
David Henson
Shtef: A question for those who believe in hell and eternal damnation.
Earthling: I don't believe in hell and eternal damnation as such, but I would like to address your questions, if you don't mind.
Shtef: If God ever held the view that a soul did not deserve a place in heaven, why would 'he' need to go one step further and subject that soul to everlasting torment?
Earthling: First of all, the Bible teaches that the soul is, in a literal sense ... the blood of any living creature, and in a figurative sense ... the life of any living creature. If 'he,' (God is a spirit creature and referred to in the masculine sense, though without gender) thought that the soul of us ought to be in heaven he would have put it there in the first place. The Earth was created for man, and heaven was created for spirit creatures. The notion that all 'good' people go to heaven and all 'bad' people go to hell is a distortion of Bible teachings. Brought about by the Pagan influence in modern day Christianity.
Secondly, the soul, according to the Bible, is not immortal. It dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) So it can't be subjected to the everlasting torment ... that is the hellfire doctrine.
Being a new member and thus potentially a bothersome spammer, I am not yet allowed to give external links, active links. But here is something I have on my website on The Reality Of Hell. Copy the URL into your browser if you would be interested. (Edit: even that won't work ... We will just have to wait. Maybe I will post the information here in this thread.)
It explains how Hell is an old English word which means to cover or conceal. Similar words in our language comes from the same root. Shell, hill, heal, hull are all coverings of some sort and whole is an uncovering.
Shtef: if you answer 'the need for justice' would not disposing of the soul and denying it communion with God in heaven be a lot simpler and serve the ends of justice? What part of God would require 'him' to subject a soul to perpetual suffering?
Earthling: No part, at least not in a literal sense. The only perpetual suffering ... uh ... and this is used in the sense of the Greek word torment which can also be translated as 'jailer,' is that the life of the person is ended, whereas the life of the person not subject to this torment lives forever.
It is interesting that you use the word justice. Words are funny. They change in our minds and in our cultures. The Hebrew word ra is used to describe Jehovah God. He is that word and he created that word. The word means in a basic sense, justice through calamitous events. Like if you have to ground your child for playing out in the busy street, that is ra ... which is translated in our English as the word 'evil.'
According to the Bible and our English language, Jehovah God is evil and created evil. The flood, for example was, a necessary evil. Had the flood not taken place none of us would be here.
Here is my point. God created the earth for man to inhabit forever. If Adam had not sinned (sinned means to miss the mark, set by anyone, in this case God) he would have lived forever. Without sin. Sin = death. It is a rejection of God, the creator.
To make a long story short, man would destroy themselves leaving the earth uninhabitable without God. That is the obvious answer to the question of sin raised by Adam and Satan. In all fairness it has to be addressed.
Those who choose life and those who choose death. Everlasting. This is what the Bible teaches rather than a literal hell which is pagan in origin.
Earthling: I don't believe in hell and eternal damnation as such, but I would like to address your questions, if you don't mind.
Shtef: If God ever held the view that a soul did not deserve a place in heaven, why would 'he' need to go one step further and subject that soul to everlasting torment?
Earthling: First of all, the Bible teaches that the soul is, in a literal sense ... the blood of any living creature, and in a figurative sense ... the life of any living creature. If 'he,' (God is a spirit creature and referred to in the masculine sense, though without gender) thought that the soul of us ought to be in heaven he would have put it there in the first place. The Earth was created for man, and heaven was created for spirit creatures. The notion that all 'good' people go to heaven and all 'bad' people go to hell is a distortion of Bible teachings. Brought about by the Pagan influence in modern day Christianity.
Secondly, the soul, according to the Bible, is not immortal. It dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) So it can't be subjected to the everlasting torment ... that is the hellfire doctrine.
Being a new member and thus potentially a bothersome spammer, I am not yet allowed to give external links, active links. But here is something I have on my website on The Reality Of Hell. Copy the URL into your browser if you would be interested. (Edit: even that won't work ... We will just have to wait. Maybe I will post the information here in this thread.)
It explains how Hell is an old English word which means to cover or conceal. Similar words in our language comes from the same root. Shell, hill, heal, hull are all coverings of some sort and whole is an uncovering.
Shtef: if you answer 'the need for justice' would not disposing of the soul and denying it communion with God in heaven be a lot simpler and serve the ends of justice? What part of God would require 'him' to subject a soul to perpetual suffering?
Earthling: No part, at least not in a literal sense. The only perpetual suffering ... uh ... and this is used in the sense of the Greek word torment which can also be translated as 'jailer,' is that the life of the person is ended, whereas the life of the person not subject to this torment lives forever.
It is interesting that you use the word justice. Words are funny. They change in our minds and in our cultures. The Hebrew word ra is used to describe Jehovah God. He is that word and he created that word. The word means in a basic sense, justice through calamitous events. Like if you have to ground your child for playing out in the busy street, that is ra ... which is translated in our English as the word 'evil.'
According to the Bible and our English language, Jehovah God is evil and created evil. The flood, for example was, a necessary evil. Had the flood not taken place none of us would be here.
Here is my point. God created the earth for man to inhabit forever. If Adam had not sinned (sinned means to miss the mark, set by anyone, in this case God) he would have lived forever. Without sin. Sin = death. It is a rejection of God, the creator.
To make a long story short, man would destroy themselves leaving the earth uninhabitable without God. That is the obvious answer to the question of sin raised by Adam and Satan. In all fairness it has to be addressed.
Those who choose life and those who choose death. Everlasting. This is what the Bible teaches rather than a literal hell which is pagan in origin.
Elvendon
Mystical Tea Dispenser
Rejected said:
If I believed that God imposed eternal punishment on the unwilling, then yes. Only those who dislike what God represents and react negatively to the love he offers to everyone will be tortured, and even these will always have the option to accept the love and give up their guilt.
If you think it's funny throwing about spurious, mocking assertions about the beliefs of others, then please remind me to never ask you to tell me a joke
Rejected
Under Reconstruction
Elvendon said:If I believed that God imposed eternal punishment on the unwilling, then yes. Only those who dislike what God represents and react negatively to the love he offers to everyone will be tortured, and even these will always have the option to accept the love and give up their guilt.
If you think it's funny throwing about spurious, mocking assertions about the beliefs of others, then please remind me to never ask you to tell me a joke
I wasn't trying to be ugly, I was just pointing out the error I saw in Verita's argument. It wasn't even directed at you.
Verita equated eternal damnation with capitol punishment, then went on to say that capitol punishment was immoral.
So:
Eternal Damnation = Capitol punishment
Capitol Punishment = Immoral
Eternal damnation = Immoral
Is this faulty?
Did I miss something.
And people who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
I do have, I think, some excellent threads on this topic if you or other folks want to think about this stuff from other points of view. Instead of bumping them all, I thought that folks reading this thread should know about:
Angellous vs Angellous: Nature of Hell
Portrait of a Madman
Christian responsibility to beg for mercy
God's Judgement
The Gospel of Jesus Christ
Angellous vs Angellous: Nature of Hell
Portrait of a Madman
Christian responsibility to beg for mercy
God's Judgement
The Gospel of Jesus Christ
Rejected
Under Reconstruction
Elvendon said:Oh I do apologise :sorry1: I've kind of developed a reflex action against offensive atheists who think that all theists think that everyone who isn't in their club goes to hell.
Your logic is faultless by the way
No worries.
I understand that a lot of people do not agree with or accept the concept of eternal punishment, and I have heaps more respect for that line of thinking.
I wouldn't say that Im an atheist, more like an agnostic pantheist or a deist, but i do beleive that God, if such a thing exists, is completely beyond human comprehension and that the search for understand of the nature of God is and should be a completely personal one.
It just seems to me that people have a way of attributing human characteristics (revenge, punishment, etc.) to a concept that is so far above human limitations that its sort of ridiculous.
Elvendon
Mystical Tea Dispenser
Rejected said:
I'm glad
It gets so tiring otherwise...I entirely respect that line of thought. In my honest opinion, I think that it really should be a personal search also, but I believe doing it with others can help bring that personal journey along somewhat - much like an AA meeting
Indeed. Putting judicial fetters on God's behaviour in response to the immortal essence of human being can be a useful explanitory tool, but take it too far and you get far too obstructed by it.
verita
Member
Rejected said:
You misunderstood me.
Capital Punishment is immoral because humans are not supposed to kill humans.
Mat 5:21 You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not kill" --and, "Whoever shall kill shall be liable to the judgment."
For Christians it is strictest. By merely saying fool to your brother you will be liable to be thrown into the fire of hell.
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the sanhedrin; but whoever shall say, Fool! shall be liable to be thrown into the fire of hell.
Eternal Damnation is the punishment for the immoral . If a person knew the law of God and he disobey it intentionally then that person is immoral in the sight of God and subject to Eternal Damnation.
Rejected
Under Reconstruction
verita said:
No, I understand you perfectly. you believe in some supreme authority that sits in judgment upon all of us heathens and nonbelievers, that we will burn in eternal hellfire, or spend eternity in "the outer darkness, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth."
verita said:
I'm not even going to bother listing all the biblical verses where God commands his followers to kill men, women and children.
verita said:
But when a man has shown that he is damaging to society, without remorse, and willing to further do harm it is immoral for his fellow man to remove him so that we may protect the rest of the community?
That just doesn't make sense.
This is a double standard. Do as I say and not as I do. I don't accept it from my politicians, why would I accept it from God. The highest authority must be held to the highest standards, not free to do whatever whim strikes him, without justification.
Your "God" (actually it's yor church that is responsible) is using scare tactics to gain followers, forgive me if I don't cower and grovel; pride is one of my favorite sins.
verita
Member
Rev 1:16 And He had seven stars in His right hand, and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword. And His face was like the sun shining in its strength.Rejected said:No, I understand you perfectly. you believe in some supreme authority that sits in judgment upon all of us heathens and nonbelievers, that we will burn in eternal hellfire, or spend eternity in "the outer darkness, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth."
I'm not even going to bother listing all the biblical verses where God commands his followers to kill men, women and children.
But when a man has shown that he is damaging to society, without remorse, and willing to further do harm it is immoral for his fellow man to remove him so that we may protect the rest of the community?
That just doesn't make sense.
This is a double standard. Do as I say and not as I do. I don't accept it from my politicians, why would I accept it from God. The highest authority must be held to the highest standards, not free to do whatever whim strikes him, without justification.
Your "God" (actually it's yor church that is responsible) is using scare tactics to gain followers, forgive me if I don't cower and grovel; pride is one of my favorite sins.
Heb 4:12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Word of God is sharper than two-edge sword. It can hurt feelings.
Rejected
Under Reconstruction
verita said:Rev 1:16 And He had seven stars in His right hand, and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword. And His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
Heb 4:12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Word of God is sharper than two-edge sword. It can hurt feelings.
What exactly is the point of this post?
