Errors in the Quran

[FearGod]

Clearly you are the liar, you asked for references and I gave them. You then asked for a specific reference and I supplied it even down to the page number.

You are acting like a con-artist.

The reason why you can not back up the quran's claim that bones formed first is because there are no textbooks on embryology that say so - all of them say that the bones and muscles formed from mesenchyme.

This is the best you can do isn't it? Pretending that the proof you have asked for was not provided.

I said quote to me the statement and the link to it.

You did nothing but just a childish acts.

Go fetch for it and come to me if you can come back with your evidence.:sarcastic

 

[Bunyip]

I said quote to me the statement and the link to it.

You did nothing but just a childish acts.

Go fetch for it and come to me if you can come back with your evidence.:sarcastic

I gave you the reference - your refusal to read it is what is childish.

 

[FearGod]

I gave you the reference - your refusal to read it is what is childish.

Quote the statement that describes bones and muscle tissues develop at the same instant.

 

[ranvirk]

Quote the statement that describes bones and muscle tissues develop at the same instant.

Haha, I think even fear god know that miraculous claims in Quran are a hoax...

Silly guy , just go and read the reference ..
It's pretty clear

 

[FearGod]

Haha, I think even fear god know that miraculous claims in Quran are a hoax...

Silly guy , just go and read the reference ..
It's pretty clear

What i know is that it isn't a hoax,thats why i asked to quote the statement.

Bring the statement here and it will be the last straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

[Bunyip]

What i know is that it isn't a hoax,thats why i asked to quote the statement.

Bring the statement here and it will be the last straw that breaks the camel's back.

I gave you the citation.

 

[FearGod]

I gave you the citation.

You are a fraud

Why not to quote it here.

 

[Bunyip]

Why not to quote it here.

Because I use a tablet and can not cut and paste, you have the citations.

 

[FearGod]

Because I use a tablet and can not cut and paste, you have the citations.

Actually tablets have those features to copy and paste.

 

[ranvirk]

Actually tablets have those features to copy and paste.

We'll not from all sources...I am using ipad but can't copy from every source out there

 

[illykitty]

We'll not from all sources...I am using ipad but can't copy from every source out there

Huh? I've never noticed that using mine.

 

[FearGod]

We'll not from all sources...I am using ipad but can't copy from every source out there

Impossible.

Only if the text is in form of images and that mostly in PDF forms,and you can easily convert the piece of information to an image and to be posted in the forum.

Those are silly excuses.

 

[Bunyip]

Impossible.

Only if the text is in form of images and that mostly in PDF forms,and you can easily convert the piece of information to an image and to be posted in the forum.

Those are silly excuses.

I gave two citations, what is your excuse for being unable to find a single citation from any scientific text on embryology that claims the bones form first?

Aside from the pbvious reason that there aren't any.

 

[FearGod]

I gave two citations, what is your excuse for being unable to find a single citation from any scientific text on embryology that claims the bones form first?

Aside from the pbvious reason that there aren't any.

You asked for a reference,if Islamic studies then there are a lot of detailed studies,but as you don't trust the Islamic ones then let's take it from your books.

The Meckel's cartilage itself and the mandible are derived from the first branchial arch, and their development depends upon the contribution of the cranial neural crest cells. The prenatal development of the Meckel's cartilage, along with its relationship to the developing mandible and the related structures, were studied histologically in human embryos and fetuses. The material was obtained from a collection of the Department of Anatomy, and laboratory procedures were used to prepare sections, which were stained according to standard light-microscopy methods. The formation of the Meckel's cartilage and its related structures was observed and documented. Some critical moments in the development of the Meckel's cartilage are suggested. The sequential development of the Meckel's cartilage started as early as stage 13 (32 days) with the appearance of condensation of mesenchymal cells within the mandibular prominence. During stage 17 (41 days), the primary ossification center of the mandible appeared on the inferior margin of the Meckel's cartilage. The muscular attachments to the Meckel's cartilage in embryos were observed at stage 18 (44 days). Their subsequent movement into the developing mandible during the 10th week seemed to diminish the role of the Meckel's cartilage as the supportive core; simultaneously, the process of regression within the cartilage was induced. During the embryonic period, the bilateral Meckel's cartilages were in closest contact at the posterior surface of their superior margins, preceding formation of the symphyseal cartilage at this site. The event sequence in the development of the Meckel's cartilage is finally discussed.

Reference : The Meckel's cartilage in human embryonic and e... [Anat Sci Int. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Scimitar]

I gave two citations, what is your excuse for being unable to find a single citation from any scientific text on embryology that claims the bones form first?

Aside from the pbvious reason that there aren't any.

A SCIENTIST'S INTERPRETATION OF REFERENCES TO EMBRYOLOGY IN THE QURAN

by Keith L. Moore, PhD., F.I.A.C.
The Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto, Canada

Statements referring to human reproduction and development are scattered throughout the Quran. It is only recently that the scientific meanings of some of these verses have been appreciated fully. The long delay in interpreting these correctly resulted mainly from inaccurate translations and commentaries and from a lack of awareness of scientific knowledge.

Interest in explanations of the verses of the Quran is not new. People used to ask the prophet Muhammad all sort of questions about the meaning of verses referring to human reproduction. The Apostle's answers from the basis of the Hadith literature.

The translations of the verses from the Quran which are interpreted in this paper were provided by Sheik Abdul Majid Zendani, a professor of Islamic Studies in King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages,
one after another, in three veils of darkness."

This statement is from Sura 39:6

We do not know when it was realized that human beings underwent development in the uterus (womb), but the first known illustration of a fetus in the uterus was drawn by Leonardo da Vinci in the 15th century. In the 2nd century A.D., Galen described the placenta and fetal membranes in his book "On the Formation of the Foetus."

Consequently, doctors in the 7th century A.D. likely knew that the human embryo developed in the uterus. It is unlikely that they knew that it developed in stages, even though Aristotle had described the stages of development of the chick embryo in the 4th century B.C. The realization that the human embryo develops in stages was not discussed and illustrated until the 15th century.

After the microscope was discovered in the 17th century by Leeuwenhoek descriptions were made of the early stages if the chick embryos. The staging of human embryos was not described until the 20th century: Streeter (1941) developed the first system of staging which has now been replace by a more accurate system proposed by O'Rahilly (1972)

"The three veils of darkness"

May refer to:
1- The anterior abdominal wall;
2- The uterine wall; and
3- The amniochorionic membrane.

Although there are other interpretations of this statement, the one presented here seems the most logical from an embryological point of view.

"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest"

This statement is from Sura 23:13.

The drop of nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Quran which states that

"A human being is created from a mixed drop."

The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop")

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure."

This statement is from Sura 23:14.

The word "alagah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the deciduas or pregnant endometrium.

It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech. As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."

This statement is also from Sura 23:14.

The Arabic work "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump."
Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh. The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordial of the vertebrae.

"Then we made out of the chewed lump, bones and clothed the bones in flesh."

This continuation of Sura 23:14 indicate that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development.
First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm.

"Then we developed out of it another creature."

This next part of Sura 23:14 implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the Human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordial of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers.

"And he gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."

This part of Sura 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordial of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last.

"Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."

This part of Sura 22:5 seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones.

"And we cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term."

This next part of Sura 22:5 seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is known that many embryos abort during the first month of development and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl.

The interpretation of the verses in the Quran referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century AD, or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Quran related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases.

From: The Journal of the Islamic Medical Association, Vol. 18, Jan-June 1986, pp. 15-16

 

[Bunyip]

A SCIENTIST'S INTERPRETATION OF REFERENCES TO EMBRYOLOGY IN THE QURAN

by Keith L. Moore, PhD., F.I.A.C.
The Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto, Canada

Statements referring to human reproduction and development are scattered throughout the Quran. It is only recently that the scientific meanings of some of these verses have been appreciated fully. The long delay in interpreting these correctly resulted mainly from inaccurate translations and commentaries and from a lack of awareness of scientific knowledge.

Interest in explanations of the verses of the Quran is not new. People used to ask the prophet Muhammad all sort of questions about the meaning of verses referring to human reproduction. The Apostle's answers from the basis of the Hadith literature.

The translations of the verses from the Quran which are interpreted in this paper were provided by Sheik Abdul Majid Zendani, a professor of Islamic Studies in King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages,
one after another, in three veils of darkness."

This statement is from Sura 39:6

We do not know when it was realized that human beings underwent development in the uterus (womb), but the first known illustration of a fetus in the uterus was drawn by Leonardo da Vinci in the 15th century. In the 2nd century A.D., Galen described the placenta and fetal membranes in his book "On the Formation of the Foetus."

Consequently, doctors in the 7th century A.D. likely knew that the human embryo developed in the uterus. It is unlikely that they knew that it developed in stages, even though Aristotle had described the stages of development of the chick embryo in the 4th century B.C. The realization that the human embryo develops in stages was not discussed and illustrated until the 15th century.

After the microscope was discovered in the 17th century by Leeuwenhoek descriptions were made of the early stages if the chick embryos. The staging of human embryos was not described until the 20th century: Streeter (1941) developed the first system of staging which has now been replace by a more accurate system proposed by O'Rahilly (1972)

"The three veils of darkness"

May refer to:
1- The anterior abdominal wall;
2- The uterine wall; and
3- The amniochorionic membrane.

Although there are other interpretations of this statement, the one presented here seems the most logical from an embryological point of view.

"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest"

This statement is from Sura 23:13.

The drop of nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Quran which states that

"A human being is created from a mixed drop."

The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop")

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure."

This statement is from Sura 23:14.

The word "alagah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the deciduas or pregnant endometrium.

It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech. As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."

This statement is also from Sura 23:14.

The Arabic work "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump."
Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh. The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordial of the vertebrae.

"Then we made out of the chewed lump, bones and clothed the bones in flesh."

This continuation of Sura 23:14 indicate that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development.
First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm.

"Then we developed out of it another creature."

This next part of Sura 23:14 implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the Human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordial of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers.

"And he gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."

This part of Sura 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordial of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last.

"Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."

This part of Sura 22:5 seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones.

"And we cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term."

This next part of Sura 22:5 seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is known that many embryos abort during the first month of development and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl.

The interpretation of the verses in the Quran referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century AD, or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Quran related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases.

From: The Journal of the Islamic Medical Association, Vol. 18, Jan-June 1986, pp. 15-16

Which of course fails to support the claim that the bones form first, and so in that regard the quran got it wrong.

 

[Bunyip]

You asked for a reference,if Islamic studies then there are a lot of detailed studies,but as you don't trust the Islamic ones then let's take it from your books.

The Meckel's cartilage itself and the mandible are derived from the first branchial arch, and their development depends upon the contribution of the cranial neural crest cells. The prenatal development of the Meckel's cartilage, along with its relationship to the developing mandible and the related structures, were studied histologically in human embryos and fetuses. The material was obtained from a collection of the Department of Anatomy, and laboratory procedures were used to prepare sections, which were stained according to standard light-microscopy methods. The formation of the Meckel's cartilage and its related structures was observed and documented. Some critical moments in the development of the Meckel's cartilage are suggested. The sequential development of the Meckel's cartilage started as early as stage 13 (32 days) with the appearance of condensation of mesenchymal cells within the mandibular prominence. During stage 17 (41 days), the primary ossification center of the mandible appeared on the inferior margin of the Meckel's cartilage. The muscular attachments to the Meckel's cartilage in embryos were observed at stage 18 (44 days). Their subsequent movement into the developing mandible during the 10th week seemed to diminish the role of the Meckel's cartilage as the supportive core; simultaneously, the process of regression within the cartilage was induced. During the embryonic period, the bilateral Meckel's cartilages were in closest contact at the posterior surface of their superior margins, preceding formation of the symphyseal cartilage at this site. The event sequence in the development of the Meckel's cartilage is finally discussed.

Reference : The Meckel's cartilage in human embryonic and e... [Anat Sci Int. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

Which confirms my point that the bones do not form first.

 

[Scimitar]

denial is your opiate?

must watch !!...Lesley Hazleton and others Scientists Comment on the Quran - YouTube

knock yourself out... they all claim the bones form first. You are a broken record

Further, the scientists, biologists, professors etc - all claimed that the Quran was divine.

And more... but let's see what you come back with. I hope its not another weak one liner.

 

[FearGod]

Which confirms my point that the bones do not form first.

So you are rejecting science and you aren't explaining anything.

Do you know much more than the specialists whom spent their life on those studies and they have nothing to do with Islam but they deal only with science.

O you who have rejected, do not apologize today. You are being requited only for what you did.(66:7)

who have taken their religion as a pastime and for amusement; worldly life has lured them on." Today We shall forget them just as they forgot about meeting on this day of theirs. Did they not repudiate Our signs? (7:51)

 

[Tumah]

Further, the scientists, biologists, professors etc - all claimed that the Quran was divine.

Can you provide a list of non-Muslim or Muslim sponsored scientists, biologists professors etc, that claim the Quran was divine, so that this statement can have some value.