1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Environmentalist Say Ethanol Is Bad For The Environment.

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by esmith, Apr 6, 2019.

  1. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    11,506
    Ratings:
    +1,469
    Religion:
    No name designated at this time.
    So, it appears that the idea of ethanol that was touted years ago was wrong. Seems that the case is now that ethanol is bad for the environment.
    The Case Against More Ethanol: It's Simply Bad for Environment
    https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a6244/e15-gasoline-damage-engine/
    https://www.publicnewsservice.org/2...ethanol-causing-environmental-damage/a63554-2
    http://rethinkethanol.com/stories/
    https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/ethanol-environment-damage/

    At least we here have access to non-ethanol gasoline. Yeah, it is higher priced than regular gas, but I can purchase it anywhere from 87-92 octane and I run it in all of my small engines.
     
  2. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    9,044
    Ratings:
    +6,566
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Who'd have thought complex supply chains would have unforeseen properties.
     
  3. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    17,024
    Ratings:
    +5,163
    Religion:
    Modern Animist
    Environmentalists have long said that such biofuels were a problem...the negative effects of devoting agricultural lands to the production of cane sugar (in the tropics) or corn or beet sugar (in temperate climes) are substantial...

    In Brazil, the nation was able to supply almost all of its transportation energy needs from cane sugar...but the environmental degradation needed to convert that crop into fuel was tremendous...but the nation was energy independent for a long time (not sure of the situation now).

    In the US, ethanol production was seen as a way of supporting the agricultural industry, especially the big corporations, such as ADM. But the amount of land, water and energy to produce the fuel has had to be subsidized heavily by tax policies.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    21,589
    Ratings:
    +9,359
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    Old news.
    Environmentalists pointed out the environmental problems years ago, and engines and seals have been adapted to the mix.
     
  5. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    13,470
    Ratings:
    +6,494
    Religion:
    None
    Whether there is a net energy gain is questionable.
     
  6. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    21,589
    Ratings:
    +9,359
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    I think the mix was instituted so vehicles could more easily pass current emissions tests. Externalities and the lower energy of ethanol weren't taken into consideration.

    Ethanol does reduce measured exhaust pollutants while the vehicle is sitting in the inspection bay, but ethanol produces less energy than gasoline, so actual mileage per gallon/liter is less.
    I don't think anyone considered that, say, a 10% reduction in mileage would counteract a 10% reduction in pollutants.
     
  7. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    13,470
    Ratings:
    +6,494
    Religion:
    None

    It was talked about as part of "energy independance".
    GWB; switchgrass. That stuff.
    It is a subsidy for farmers.
    Net energy gain or loss did not show up
    in discussion.
    I the variable cost of production and the source of
    the expense makes net energy hard to track.
    To get it right, everything from mining and smelting iron,
    through irtigation pumps etc and blah has to be figured
    in.

    Mevhanized farming-as a rule please soneone correct me-
    requires a multiple of energy input to output.

    Ethanol is a boobdoggle, a phony solution.
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    27,657
    Ratings:
    +15,376
    Religion:
    Atheist
    It is a complex problem. Ethanol from corn grain only is almost certainly a net loss of energy, but if we develop a way of producing ethanol economically from cellulose it may have been a net positive since we were given a head start on re-engineering vehicles so that they could use ethanol.

    And any change in energy is going to be a complex problem, whether it is so called "clean coal", nuclear, or even cancer causing windmills:rolleyes:
     
  9. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    13,470
    Ratings:
    +6,494
    Religion:
    None

    There's billions to be had for anyone who can figure
    outv a zipper for cellulose.

    Think of it this way. Cellulose is "designed" to not have
    a simple way to deconstruct it.

    Some fungus would have figured it out back in the
    used to be, and, where would we be now?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    27,657
    Ratings:
    +15,376
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Good point, there may never be a way to do so economically. But giving up ahead of time never solves a problem. There may be other sources of ethanol. And if not I am sure that we can find a use for the ethanol that we make now. I am going to do my part:D:rolleyes:
     
  11. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    21,589
    Ratings:
    +9,359
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    I've heard electricity might work...
     
  12. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    11,506
    Ratings:
    +1,469
    Religion:
    No name designated at this time.
    Only for you urban dwellers
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    27,657
    Ratings:
    +15,376
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Even suburban dwellers should have no problem using an electric car for every day use. You hat sort of range do you need in a vehicle on a daily basis?
     
  14. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    11,506
    Ratings:
    +1,469
    Religion:
    No name designated at this time.
    I was implying that a electric vehicle is viable if one is only using a car for daily transportation.
    If one is using a vehicle other than a car, electric power is not workable in all situations.
    In other words until advances in batteries (or their replacement) progress well beyond the present the need for a fossil fueled engine is mandatory.

    Truck makers rev up for rollout of electric big rigs
     
    #14 esmith, Apr 7, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  15. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    55,054
    Ratings:
    +13,577
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    Ethanol wasn't ever about the environment; it was about selling more corn.
     
  16. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    11,506
    Ratings:
    +1,469
    Religion:
    No name designated at this time.
    Only because MTBE was thought to make water unsafe to drink(thanks again CA) which has not been proven and many states passed laws passed laws limiting or banning the use of MTBE in gasoline. Hence the switch to ethanol.
    Why is there ethanol in gasoline?
    MTBE
     
  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    27,657
    Ratings:
    +15,376
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Okay, that's reasonable. I don't think that they have an electric vehicle that can handle a twelve bottom plow yet.
     
  18. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    23,657
    Ratings:
    +8,849
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    Well there's always nuclear. Its as green an energy source as you're going to get.
    Oh boy oh joy, something else for environmentalists to complain about.

    Electric cars 'pose green threat'

    Ozone: A Powerful Lung Irritant
     
  19. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    2,757
    Ratings:
    +1,870
    Religion:
    Terminus Est.
    No, it's not. Nuclear waste being stored in an unsafe way is the norm in America.
     
  20. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    8,572
    Ratings:
    +8,031
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    Actually ozone is a serious pollutant and health hazard. Its only in the high atmosphere that its shielding effect makes it useful.Otherwise its highly toxic.
     
Loading...