Enemy's enemies are your friends - jews and Christians, unlikely friendship

[Harel13]

It may also be possible that it is some other source. After all, Paul doesn’t seem to say he is quoting Jeremiah.

So he's quoting an apparently lost source? Interesting answer. Very well.

What Paul says, comes obvious from what we can see happened.

Not really, considering the return of Jews to Israel, but we clearly disagree on what that event means, so let's let that point go.

I didn’t find Paul saying he is quoting Jeremiah. They are very similar, but if Jeremiah didn’t have the part Paul has, maybe he is quoting some other source. In any case, my point is only to say, by what I know, it is not possible to accuse Paul of lying, because we don’t have enough evidence for it.

Very well.

I would say, one possible reason is that there has not remained any other version.

Wonder how would that have happened. I mean, didn't Paul live before the destruction of the Temple? I would've expected him, if indeed he was preaching a now-lost source/other version of Jeremiah, to have sent to all of his students and converts the correct version of the Bible, at which point, that would've been the book that would've spread around the Roman Empire.
Why would god have allowed such a thing to happen?

and orders are like “do this, because it is good”.

But under the umbrella term of what you define as "orders" you still find many many negative commandments (meaning, things one shouldn't do), such as witchcraft, for example. That's not mentioned in the Ten Commandments, and the penalty for that is death, too, just like what you defined as "laws"...

 

[1213]

…

Not really, considering the return of Jews to Israel, but we clearly disagree on what that event means, so let's let that point go….

Yes, but during the Paul era, Israel was under Roman rule, which proves to me that they had broken the covenant and were disregarded by God (doesn’t mean entirely rejected and abandoned).

Now that Jews have returned, or are returning, it shows to me that the has happened the change that can lead to it.

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

And I think this is nice evidence for Bible to be true.

…Why would god have allowed such a thing to happen?...

Maybe because it is not really any meaningful problem for those who are righteous.

But, what do you think, if there was never such writing, why would Paul write it? He doesn’t really need it, because the matter could be shown to be true in other ways also and it is not absolutely necessary for the main point of the writing.

But under the umbrella term of what you define as "orders" you still find many many negative commandments (meaning, things one shouldn't do), such as witchcraft, for example. That's not mentioned in the Ten Commandments, and the penalty for that is death, too, just like what you defined as "laws"...

Yes, but if it has death penalty, I think it can be counted as law, not just order. I think it is also against the ten commandments. And actually, all the “smaller” commandments that have penalty for braking it, seem to be just clarifications for the ten commandments.

 

[Harel13]

why would Paul write it?

I think you already know my opinion on the matter: Paul - and other authors of the NT made up stuff to further their Christian beliefs and goals.

seem to be just clarifications for the ten commandments.

Here's an example: sitting in a wooden hut for seven days and waving around a "bouquet" of various plants is, according to you, clarification for which of the Ten Commandments?

 

[Muffled]

In our area, we have many Muslim students who attend Catholic schools because we both do believe in God ("Allah" in Arabic).

I believe that falls into the category of the blind leading the blind but my experience is that people are fully capable of being oblivious to the truth no matter when or where they hear it.

 

[Muffled]

I think you already know my opinion on the matter: Paul - and other authors of the NT made up stuff to further their Christian beliefs and goals.

I believe you version is fantasy without any solid basis.

Here's an example: sitting in a wooden hut for seven days and waving around a "bouquet" of various plants is, according to you, clarification for which of the Ten Commandments?

I believe on would have to imagine a connection.

 

[Harel13]

I believe on would have to imagine a connection.

That's really rude man, editing my post when quoting it.
Also, I didn't understand your reply.

 

[metis]

I believe that falls into the category of the blind leading the blind but my experience is that people are fully capable of being oblivious to the truth no matter when or where they hear it.

You, of course, know the truth while most of the rest of us are just ignorant dolts, right?

Maybe look up the word "Allah" as it is in Arabic and check out what the translation of that name is in English, and then maybe actually read parts of the Quran and see what else it says and who else it references in the Bible.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But, now that we have the scripture that tells about person who claims there is a prophecy about something, it is more difficult to me to believe that person would make up the claim, when it would have been easy for those present to see it as a lie.

The best part about making up prophecies well after they happened is that the supposed prophet is usually dead and can't complain.

And person can become righteous by words Jesus declared.

Just calling a serial killer "righteous" doesn't make them so.

Yes, but during the Paul era, Israel was under Roman rule, which proves to me that they had broken the covenant and were disregarded by God (doesn’t mean entirely rejected and abandoned).

I think it just means that Yahweh needs an excuse when He's been sleeping through national emergencies.

 

[1213]

Here's an example: sitting in a wooden hut for seven days and waving around a "bouquet" of various plants is, according to you, clarification for which of the Ten Commandments?

I said: “… all the “smaller” commandments that have penalty for braking it”. What is the penalty of not “sitting in a wooden hut for seven days and waving around a "bouquet" of various plants”?

 

[Harel13]

I said: “… all the “smaller” commandments that have penalty for braking it”. What is the penalty of not “sitting in a wooden hut for seven days and waving around a "bouquet" of various plants”?

Only commandments with written penalties are extensions of the Ten Commandments? And the rest are chopped liver?

 

[1213]

Only commandments with written penalties are extensions of the Ten Commandments? And the rest are chopped liver?

I don’t think the rest are insignificant, even if they don’t have nay penalty, if not obeyed.

 

[dybmh]

What is the penalty of not “sitting in a wooden hut for seven days and waving around a "bouquet" of various plants”?

I'm guessing the transgressor is liable for "kares", the soul is spiritually cut-off...

Kareth - Wikipedia

 

[Harel13]

@1213 It's been an interesting discussion and you have interesting and original opinions on some of these issue, but respectfully, I think it's safe to end the discussion with my starting point, which is, that Jews & Christians do in fact disagree on quite a number of issues which is why I don't think it should be natural for the two to join together as though they were one and the same. To an outsider or someone who isn't too well versed on the different core ideas between the two, it would seem like not such a big deal, but to people who do understand the differences, it is.

 

[metis]

@1213 It's been an interesting discussion and you have interesting and original opinions on some of these issue, but respectfully, I think it's safe to end the discussion with my starting point, which is, that Jews & Christians do in fact disagree on quite a number of issues which is why I don't think it should be natural for the two to join together as though they were one and the same. To an outsider or someone who isn't too well versed on the different core ideas between the two, it would seem like not such a big deal, but to people who do understand the differences, it is.

I don't know why, but your response above reminds me of what Paul Johnson wrote in the "History of the Jews", namely that it's times of crisis that especially caused Jews to cooperate together, but there was trouble handling prosperity as bickering and division would typically resume. I tend to think this is probably true across the board with probably all faiths.

 

[Harel13]

I don't know why, but your response above reminds me of what Paul Johnson wrote in the "History of the Jews", namely that it's times of crisis that especially caused Jews to cooperate together, but there was trouble handling prosperity as bickering and division would typically resume. I tend to think this is probably true across the board with probably all faiths.

True, but my discussion with @1213 began with my questioning one of his posts that stated Jews and Christians should join up because they're basically the same - which is untrue and I don't see that as a valid reason to join forces with Christians on anything. Helping each other and mankind in times of crisis, now that's a more sensible reason, but of course, not permanently.

 

[metis]

True, but my discussion with @1213 began with my questioning one of his posts that stated Jews and Christians should join up because they're basically the same - which is untrue and I don't see that as a valid reason to join forces with Christians on anything. Helping each other and mankind in times of crisis, now that's a more sensible reason, but of course, not permanently.

Yep, and I am somewhat involved with that cooperation with attending interfaith meetings, and I've helped with the homeless in our area's WOW program by doing some volunteer work at a local Reform synagogue. I've also done some delivery of food for Yad Ezra in the past.

My point is that beliefs are all fine & dandy but I feel we should do our best to help and respect each other, and I get the impression that you may feel the same way as well.

Anyhow, I finally have to leave for the rest of the weekend, so shalom and take care.

 

[1213]

...Jews & Christians do in fact disagree on quite a number of issues ...

Thanks, it has been nice to debate. And I just want to say, I agree that “Christians” and Jews disagree in many things. I just think they don’t really have any good Biblical reason for that. Unfortunately, “Christians” have nowadays many non-Biblical teachings that lead many astray.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thanks, it has been nice to debate. And I just want to say, I agree that “Christians” and Jews disagree in many things. I just think they don’t really have any good Biblical reason for that. Unfortunately, “Christians” have nowadays many non-Biblical teachings that lead many astray.

It's more than that. They also butcher their understanding of the Prophets, misquoting it, making up quotes that don't exist, and quoting it out of context. And according to the book of Hebrews, the Torah is passing away, replaced by their New Covenant. That pretty much nixes everything Jews bring to the table.

 

[1213]

It's more than that. They also butcher their understanding of the Prophets, misquoting it, making up quotes that don't exist, and quoting it out of context…

Please show one example what do you mean?

…And according to the book of Hebrews, the Torah is passing away, replaced by their New Covenant...

I would like to see what is actually said in the book of Hebrews that makes you think it says Torah is passing away. But anyway, the new covenant is declared already in the OT, so it is not just some idea only in NT.

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

The teachings of Jesus and Paul are basically about that and by what Jesus said there can happen the change in persons heart.

 

[rosends]

Please show one example what do you mean?



I would like to see what is actually said in the book of Hebrews that makes you think it says Torah is passing away. But anyway, the new covenant is declared already in the OT, so it is not just some idea only in NT.

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

The teachings of Jesus and Paul are basically about that and by what Jesus said there can happen the change in persons heart.

Doesn't this response underscore the entire nature of the problem? Ignoring what was said earlier about misquotes not being misquotes but quotes from missing texts, you have chosen to take 2 texts given to the Jewish people and understand them in a way not in accord with Jewish understanding. If the essential approach of Christianity is to say "Hey Jews, the way you understand your own texts is inherently wrong...let me explain what they really mean" then doesn't this point out an essential mismatch? You had said that you don't see any biblical reason for disagreement, but your presenting an alien interpretation as normative, thus denying the Jewish understanding is the source of disagreement. What you might not see is why Jews have and hold on to the understanding as we do. But we do, and we see the one you present as incorrect. If that isn't a disagreement, then what is?