Enemy's enemies are your friends - jews and Christians, unlikely friendship

[dybmh]

I don’t see how that is worship through Jesus. And what do you think, when in ancient times Jews had priests who did the sacrificing, was it worship through the priests?

No, I don't think it was worshiping through the priests.

@Tumah, do you know if there was a Bracha made when an individual brought a sacrifice to the Temple? If so, the wording used might be good evidence against this idea that Jews worshiped through the Temple priests?

 

[dybmh]

I don’t see how that is worship through Jesus. And what do you think, when in ancient times Jews had priests who did the sacrificing, was it worship through the priests?

Jesus advocated for a practice which disqualifies him as the Moshiach ( the Jewish Messiah ) according tot he Book of John and Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 clearly says anyone executes signs and wonders but asks to follow other different gods ( aka Jesus as God ) don't follow them. It also says, don't add anything to these words. Don't add. That's crystal clear. Adding a gate to God, is ... **adding**.

John 14:7-17 clearly says that Jesus has added himself as a gate to God. And clearly instructs the entire world to talk to God in his name. He says to speak to him, Jesus, and then Jesus will make it happen... Come on... Why would you expect a Torah Observant Jew in this modern world to do that? I can totally understand why Jews at that time and place would be led astray. but now?

 

[Harel13]

Please show one scripture from NT that is anti-Judaism.

I was about to start combing the NT for proper quotes, but then I saw you already did my work for me:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.
John 14:6

Judaism doesn't hold that one needs a mediator to reach God. Every day we pray 3 times directly to God and no one else.

But here are some more:

"Then Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who were selling and buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold doves. He said to them, ‘It is written,
“My house shall be called a house of prayer”; but you are making it a den of robbers.’" (Matt. 21:12-13)
​

Wreaking havoc in the Holy Temple is anti-Judaism. There are laws on maintenance of holy places. Furthermore, Jesus had zero proof and no legal right to punish the merchants/money-changers and buyers. He claims they're robbers, but shows no proof of this and decides to become a crazy zealot. As I'm sure you know, Judaism has no shortage of laws. To punish someone, the court must first gather and pass judgement based on proper Jewish legal proceedings. None of this happened, according to the NT, but sure, Jesus, go ahead and do whatever the heck you want.

The entire concept of a ""New"" Testament is anti-Judaism. I don't think I need to quote here the entire NT, but here's one specific example:

"When God speaks of a 'new' covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13)
​

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Not to mention all the times the NT misquotes the Tanach.

 

[dybmh]

"When God speaks of a 'new' covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13)

Good One!

 

[Harel13]

Good One!

Thank the internet...

 

[Muffled]

What?

I believe this is how it works. The Muslims say the Trinity is three Gods; Christians say it is one God. The Muslims aree saying three Gods which the Qu'ran says not to do.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I believe this is how it works. The Muslims say the Trinity is three Gods; Christians say it is one God. The Muslims aree saying three Gods which the Qu'ran says not to do.

Muslims don't believe in the Trinity, which it looks like you are trying to claim.

 

[1213]

…. Every day we pray 3 times directly to God and no one else…

Jesus also taught that people should pray God directly.

…Wreaking havoc in the Holy Temple is anti-Judaism….

I think it was pro Judaism, because he wanted that the temple is used for what is meant for, not as trading place.

…"When God speaks of a 'new' covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13)…

I like more this translation:

In that he says, "A new covenant," he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away.
Hebrews 8:13

I think it is old, but not obsolete.

But, I think it would be good to understand, what is coming old. What do you think “old covenant” means?

Not to mention all the times the NT misquotes the Tanach.

Please give one example?

 

[1213]

Jesus advocated for a practice which disqualifies him as the Moshiach ( the Jewish Messiah ) according tot he Book of John and Deuteronomy.

By what I have seen, Jews have no idea what Moshiach should be according to the Bible. I think they as also many Christians interpret wrongly parts that speak about God, not about Moshiach.

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 clearly says anyone executes signs and wonders but asks to follow other different gods ( aka Jesus as God ) don't follow them. It also says, don't add anything to these words. Don't add. That's crystal clear. Adding a gate to God, is ... **adding**.

John 14:7-17 clearly says that Jesus has added himself as a gate to God. And clearly instructs the entire world to talk to God in his name. He says to speak to him, Jesus, and then Jesus will make it happen... Come on... Why would you expect a Torah Observant Jew in this modern world to do that? I can totally understand why Jews at that time and place would be led astray. but now?

In this case I think it would be good to understand that the name of Jesus, was the name of God, because God had given His name to Jesus.

I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:11

God had given His name to Jesus and it means, Jesus acted in the name of God. He made the new covenant in the name of God and spoke what God had commanded him to speak. This could be compared to a president or ambassador of a country who makes a deal in the name of the country. President or person who represents a country, is not himself the country, but he can make deals in the name of a country. Same is with Jesus. It doesn’t make Jesus God, similarly as president is not himself the country he represents.

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
John 12:49-50

Jesus therefore answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17

Jesus told he spoke what God had commanded him to speak. It was not his own message. And it doesn’t make him God. Bible tells he is the mediator between men and God, similarly as Moses also was a mediator between men and God.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

That is what the Bible tells, and I don’t have a problem, if you don’t want to believe that, but I hope you understand what it means.

 

[1213]

No, I don't think it was worshiping through the priests.

Good. Bible tells Jesus is the high priest. And I don’t think we worship through the priest.

Therefore he was obligated in all things to be made like his brothers, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
Hebrews 2:17-18

Bible tells Jesus is like a defense lawyer. And I recommend him in all cases when the accuser is the “serpent”.

The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now is come the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
Revelation 12:9-10

 

[Harel13]

Jesus also taught that people should pray God directly.

So... He had trouble making his mind up?

I think it was pro Judaism, because he wanted that the temple is used for what is meant for, not as trading place.

Whatever his intention may or may not have been, the way the situation (which may or may not have taken place) is described is in an anti-Judaism manner. You asked in what way is the NT anti-Judaism and that's the answer I gave you.

but not obsolete.

Hmmm. So what does "fade away" mean? And tell me, are you walking around with little strings hanging out of the four corners of your undershirt? Did you put on phylacteries this morning?
Because if fade away doesn't mean to become obsolete, then what happened to all those other commandments?

“old covenant”

In this context, tossing it aside.

Please give one example?

"For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord." (Heb. 8:7-9)
Paul supposedly quotes Jeremiah.

Here's the original:
"...It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers, when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, a covenant which they broke, though I espoused them—declares the LORD." (Jer. 31:32)

 

[dybmh]

By what I have seen, Jews have no idea what Moshiach should be according to the Bible.

OK. It's a mystery. I can agree to that.

I think they as also many Christians interpret wrongly parts that speak about God, not about Moshiach.

OK. I have no idea, but you may be right.,

In this case I think it would be good to understand that the name of Jesus, was the name of God, because God had given His name to Jesus.

I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:11

You should know that Jesus' words aren't a credible source for me.

God had given His name to Jesus and it means, Jesus acted in the name of God.

I'm of the belief that God names everyone, everything, arguably even non-things...

He made the new covenant in the name of God and spoke what God had commanded him to speak. This could be compared to a president or ambassador of a country who makes a deal in the name of the country. President or person who represents a country, is not himself the country, but he can make deals in the name of a country. Same is with Jesus. It doesn’t make Jesus God, similarly as president is not himself the country he represents.

According to whom? Jesus disqualified himself. Deuteronomy 4:2. Adding and removing is not allowed... There's really no way around it. The entire Jesus narrative is... Treif ... not Kosher.

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
[URL='https://www.religiousforums.com/bible/john/12:49-50/']John 12:49-50

Jesus therefore answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17

Yeah... sorry... more Jesus quotes won't convince me. Have you ever tried to plant wildflowers on concrete? It's like that..

That is what the Bible tells, and I don’t have a problem, if you don’t want to believe that, but I hope you understand what it means.

It means I'm Jewish... and I should probably update my religious label on RF to reflect that...

It's just I hate labels. And I'm not a typical Jew. But Jesus rolls off me like water off a ducks back.[/URL]

 

[dybmh]

Bible tells Jesus is like a defense lawyer. And I recommend him in all cases when the accuser is the “serpent”.

I like serpents...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

nm

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Please give one example?

Matthew 2:23 says that when Jesus moved to Nazareth, this “fulfilled what was said through the prophets: ‘He will be called a Nazarene.’” The problem is, none of the prophets ever said this! Matthew totally made it up.

 

[1213]

...The problem is, none of the prophets ever said this! ...

The problem with that claim is, how can I know that no prophet ever said so?

 

[1213]

…
You should know that Jesus' words aren't a credible source for me.
...

So, you only use the words that are beneficial to you, and ignore everything that could make Jesus a good Jew that is loyal to the one and only true God?

I can understand if you don’t believe what the Bible tells, but if the point is to look is Jesus blasphemer , or anti-Jew, or not, I think it can be done only by reading what he has said.

 

[1213]

So... He had trouble making his mind up?

Sorry, I don’t see any reason to think so.

Hmmm. So what does "fade away" mean? And tell me, are you walking around with little strings hanging out of the four corners of your undershirt? Did you put on phylacteries this morning?

Please tell, why should one do that? What is the purpose?

…
Paul supposedly quotes Jeremiah.

Here's the original:
"...It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers, when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, a covenant which they broke, though I espoused them—declares the LORD." (Jer. 31:32)

I think Paul quotes it well. But, I think it is nice that what Paul says is not absolutely necessary, because we have these OT scriptures that clearly speaks about a new covenant. And that the new covenant is foretold, is one reason for me to believe Jesus, he does what was announced before him and it is not in contradiction with the earlier prophets.

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

I think that new covenant was launched through Jesus. The words he declared can make the change in person’s innermost so that “the law is written into person’s heart”.

 

[dfnj]

(By "friends" I here mean any kind of ally in religious terms.)

Taking into account history, should Jews and Christians be friends? Or Jews and muslims? Or Muslims and Christians?

Which one would make a most likely friendship?

Muslims got along well with Jews for centuries. Christians have persecuted Jews to say the least. The Qur'an describes Christians as being nearer to Muslims than Jews.

Jews and Christians at least recognize each other's religion. Nowadays both Christians and Jews see Islam as a kind of enemy. At the same time some Jews consider Muslims allies against the west (Christians?) and some Muslims also actually hold Jews in higher esteem in certain aspects compared to Christians.

Are enemy's enemies your friendemies?

 

[Harel13]

Sorry, I don’t see any reason to think so.

That's not much of an explanation, though. First Jesus say one can only reach God through him, then he says everyone can reach God directly?

Please tell, why should one do that? What is the purpose?

Why? Because God said to do so. That's the first and foremost reason, before any other. It says so right there in the Torah.

I think Paul quotes it well.

Of course you would think so. Because it fits well with Christianity's view that God has left Israel. Unfortunately, that's not what it says.
Quoting the new covenant stuff. Nothing new. Tell me, where in all of that text does it say that God will erase all of the laws? Nowhere! So where are your phylacteries?