Embarrassing questions which cannot be asked

[herushura]

cross was symbolic of the tree - the tree from Eden.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/76858-who-redeemed-9.html

#83 is my take on things.

Astrological Signs

Libra is the Tree/Scales of good and Evil.

Jesus died on the Vernal Equinox - The time when night/day are equal, thus the Christian Cross is a Pun for the scales of Libra.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Doubt planted by the thoughts of men rather than relying on Gods Word

In what way would Mary's neighbours have not relied on God's Word if they saw her pregnant and unmarried, and considered that there was at least a chance that the pregnancy was caused by fornication?

Jesus was actually God's very first creation his Only begotten son

But Adam wasn't begotten, was he? Was Eve begotten? Apparently, God can create people without "begetting" them.

Jesus was not conceived by a magical creature, he was transfered from heaven to Marys womb, which I said in the previous post

The Biblical account is that He was conceived in the Holy Spirit... i.e a magical creature, just like I said.

In any case, again, what reason would Mary's neighbours or Jesus' acquaintances have had to take your version as true? They see a pregnant, unwed woman; even taking as given that somehow, they decided that the baby wasn't the product of good old-fashioned fornication, how do they get from "Mary's pregnant" to "Mary's child is the Son of God"?

If the devil was his father would he keep trying to tempt him and say If you are a Son Of God? Also would Jesus being the kind of man he was tell his father to "Go Away"? I doubt that very much

I don't know. I imagine that if I was the son of Satan, I wouldn't be very keen on that fact.

However, again, would Jesus' neighbours and acquaintances have had access to the Gospel According to Matthew?

In citing all the scripture that you did, the message I get from you is that the real reason people believe that Jesus is the Son of God is that the Bible says so... not that He was born of a virgin. You said that He had to be born of a virgin so that there would be no doubt He was the Son of God, however, there's still lots of doubt:

- a woman who claims to be a virgin isn't necessarily so. In fact, pregnant women who claim to be virgins are almost universally not virgins.
- even when you allow for supernatural causes for the pregnancy, that supernatural cause isn't necessarily God directly.
- even when you allow for supernatural causes and decide that the cause is God directly, there are conceivable (no pun intended) methods that God might use that wouldn't imply that God is the child's literal father.

The only way this doubt can be resolved is with a ton of explanation, like angels coming down from Heaven to proclaim things, or spelling things out clearly (?) in a written work like the Bible. However, these ways of resolving doubt would work just as well if Jesus were conceived after Mary and Joseph were married, if he was found in a basket floating in the river, or if he crash-landed in an escape capsule/asteroid thing Superman style.

IOW, if you go with a literal interpretation of the Bible, there really is no reason why Jesus was born of a virgin and not born or created some other way. The possible reasons for having Him be born of a virgin deal with things like metaphor and symbolism, which point toward a literary source for at least this aspect of the Gospel story rather than a historical or factual source.

 

[lockyfan]

In what way would Mary's neighbours have not relied on God's Word if they saw her pregnant and unmarried, and considered that there was at least a chance that the pregnancy was caused by fornication?

They would have had the word of Joseph telling them that it was not of fornication and he was told by an angel.

But Adam wasn't begotten, was he? Was Eve begotten? Apparently, God can create people without "begetting" them.

Adam wasnt created directly by God though. Adam was created by the angel who later became known as Jesus, the Archangel Michael. Jesus is Gods only begotten son because he is the only thing directly created by God, through Jesus everything else came into existance, using Jehovahs designs

The Biblical account is that He was conceived in the Holy Spirit... i.e a magical creature, just like I said.

Holy Spirit is not a creature, it is an active force, the thing that roved over the earth at the beginning of creation in
Genesis 1:2 Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.

In any case, again, what reason would Mary's neighbours or Jesus' acquaintances have had to take your version as true? They see a pregnant, unwed woman; even taking as given that somehow, they decided that the baby wasn't the product of good old-fashioned fornication, how do they get from "Mary's pregnant" to "Mary's child is the Son of God"?

Its for our benefit not theirs. They found out after Jesus was baptised when he vwas 30, before then he was just a child of these two people. They didnt accept it then and the Jews were removed as God's People because they wouldnt except that Jesus was the messiah

I don't know. I imagine that if I was the son of Satan, I wouldn't be very keen on that fact.

Those that are friends/companions of satan are quite happy to do his bidding. But Jesus has authority over them

However, again, would Jesus' neighbours and acquaintances have had access to the Gospel According to Matthew?

No but they did have all the prophesies regarding things to do with Jesus. Plus they had John the Baptist once he got older, who told everyone the Messiah was coming. John the Baptist was the son of Mary's sister

In citing all the scripture that you did, the message I get from you is that the real reason people believe that Jesus is the Son of God is that the Bible says so... not that He was born of a virgin. You said that He had to be born of a virgin so that there would be no doubt He was the Son of God, however, there's still lots of doubt:

It was one of the reasons why, not the only one

- a woman who claims to be a virgin isn't necessarily so. In fact, pregnant women who claim to be virgins are almost universally not virgins.

These days maybe, back then it was a little rougher on a woman who had relations before she was married
Times have changed.

- even when you allow for supernatural causes for the pregnancy, that supernatural cause isn't necessarily God directly.

It is if you read all the prophesies from the old testament
- even when you allow for supernatural causes and decide that the cause is God directly, there are conceivable (no pun intended) methods that God might use that wouldn't imply that God is the child's literal father.

The only way this doubt can be resolved is with a ton of explanation, like angels coming down from Heaven to proclaim things, or spelling things out clearly (?) in a written work like the Bible. However, these ways of resolving doubt would work just as well if Jesus were conceived after Mary and Joseph were married, if he was found in a basket floating in the river, or if he crash-landed in an escape capsule/asteroid thing Superman style.

Or by Jesus himself saying so, or by again John the Baptist, or after Joseph was told. remeber Joseph was laready engaged or betrothed to Mary before this all happened, he would have needed to know so that others would have to be told, because otherwise Mary would have been killed for being a Adulteress

IOW, if you go with a literal interpretation of the Bible, there really is no reason why Jesus was born of a virgin and not born or created some other way. The possible reasons for having Him be born of a virgin deal with things like metaphor and symbolism, which point toward a literary source for at least this aspect of the Gospel story rather than a historical or factual source.

Born as a human by a virgin already alive beforehand in heaven remember.
Purity for his perfection as well as the symbolism


Man this is fun!

 

[adimus]

In most religions, there seem to be a near-infinite number of questions which simply cannot be asked, because they are embarrassing.

For example, in Genesis why is Eve created from one of Adam's rib bones? Why not his femur, or toenail?

It is a carryover from another local myth in the ancient world. The story is non literal. It has spiritual applications. It is not meant to be scientific.

Or: why was Jesus born of a virgin woman? Because he was the uncreated God. Therefor he could not be a natural byproduct of sperm and egg. .

Why wasn't he born of a virgin man, Because he was a human being. Humans are born of women. Simple.

or materialize out of thin air? He did. He materialized as a zygote in Myriam's womb.



Or: why was the prophet Muhammad sent a winged horse to transport him from Mecca to Jerusalem and back? Because peyote, wine, a few weeks of decapitating people and marrying various women will do that to ya. Try it sometime. :yes:

Why wasn't he sent a piloted helicopter, or a matter-transporter? Because that would not be miraculous. None such were in existence at the time either. It needed to be totally secret also. That way if you question him he has an excuse to decapitate you too- you infidel! :slap:

Or: why is the angel Moroni depicted blowing a trumpet to herald the second coming? Why not a blast from a tuba, or an electric guitar? Because those instruments don't seem as heavenly and spiritual.

These are the kinds of questions kids are encouraged not to ask early on in the indoctrination process. They are questions which are embarrassing because "of course" the alternatives would be ridiculous and impossible....but then this exposes how ridiculous and impossible the original propositions are in the first place. The believer is constantly left mystified, saying "I guess that's just how god wanted it"....while the rest of us know perfectly well the answers: because these myths were written by provincial human beings, and thus reflects their particular human tastes and symbolisms.

We know perfectly well why Muhammad was sent a winged horse, according to the story: because ancient people had to trudge around in the desert for days and weeks just to reach a neighboring city, probably in a caravan staring at the back of a donkey's butt, while birds flew freely overhead. It's natural that they would fantasize about a horse with wings, that could fly like the birds, and take you across the world in a few days. You can even put a beautiful woman's face on the horse for good measure. (And why not a beautiful man's face? Because the authors and those in power were MEN, of course.)

I do believe in the Bible. I also don't think that a virgin birth is really in the same category as flying around on a winged horse with a woman's face.

 

[lockyfan]

here here adimus

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Most religions are highly mythical, and rely on metaphor and allegory to communicate their tenets. Your seem to have a problem with the nature of myth, which translates truth, instead of transmitting fact.

I appreciate a good myth as much as anyone. However, "most" religions explicitly maintain that certain obvious myths (e.g. the resurrection of Christ) are not myths. Secondly, myths don't have to be "true" even allegorically. Arguably there are parts of Beowulf and the Odyssey which are simply wonderful storytelling, no deep truth necessarily involved (a more clear-cut case is hickory-dickory-dock). Or, a myth could have a lesson or meaning, but it's a bad one, or only partly true.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I do believe in the Bible. I also don't think that a virgin birth is really in the same category as flying around on a winged horse with a woman's face.

True. I have to agree here. Winged horses with women's faces could evolve, I suppose, but a virgin birth is just impossible.

 

[adimus]

True. I have to agree here. Winged horses with women's faces could evolve, I suppose, but a virgin birth is just impossible.

No, they couldn't evolve. It would fly in the face of natural selection.

The virgin birth is obviously impossible. That is why it is presented one of the greatest miracles and sign from God that Jesus is who he said he is.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

True. I have to agree here. Winged horses with women's faces could evolve, I suppose, but a virgin birth is just impossible.

Maybe she was artificially inseminated! Oooohhhh - didn't think of that did ya? Did that exist back then? Any octumoms mentioned in the bible?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, they couldn't evolve. It would fly in the face of natural selection.

The virgin birth is obviously impossible. That is why it is presented one of the greatest miracles and sign from God that Jesus is who he said he is.

Of course!

A winged horse with a woman's face?! That's obviously impossible and therefore ridiculous!

A virgin birth?! That's obviously impossible and therefore a definite sign from God!

:sarcastic

 

[adimus]

Maybe she was artificially inseminated! Oooohhhh - didn't think of that did ya? Did that exist back then? Any octumoms mentioned in the bible?

She was. But not by doctors and people. Jesus went into her womb through means outside of sex and science.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

She was. But not by doctors and people. Jesus went into her womb through means outside of sex and science.

Into octumom? The messiah has returned?

 

[adimus]

Into octumom? The messiah has returned?

Who her? :flirt:

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They would have had the word of Joseph telling them that it was not of fornication and he was told by an angel.

Which they would have had even if Jesus had not been born of a virgin.

Adam wasnt created directly by God though. Adam was created by the angel who later became known as Jesus, the Archangel Michael. Jesus is Gods only begotten son because he is the only thing directly created by God, through Jesus everything else came into existance, using Jehovahs designs

Ah... so, you take Genesis 1:27 and 2:6 to be metaphor? If so, why can't you take the whole "born of a virgin" thing as metaphor as well?

Holy Spirit is not a creature, it is an active force, the thing that roved over the earth at the beginning of creation in
Genesis 1:2

Ah - my mistake. I assumed you believed in the mainstream version of the Trinity, in which the Holy Spirit is God, but is a separate person (which I think implies something other than just "an active force") from the other persons of the Trinity. My fault for assuming.

Its for our benefit not theirs.

Ah... so, the mere fact that Mary was a virgin was never intended to convince anyone of anything, or to erase any doubt, right? It was only with all the explanation and testimony of the Bible that we were expected to believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

Those that are friends/companions of satan are quite happy to do his bidding. But Jesus has authority over them

"Related to" does not necessarily imply "friend of".

No but they did have all the prophesies regarding things to do with Jesus. Plus they had John the Baptist once he got older, who told everyone the Messiah was coming. John the Baptist was the son of Mary's sister

Right... so there was a ton of things that pointed to Jesus being the Son of God besides Mary's virginity when she had Him.

It was one of the reasons why, not the only one

But why do you consider it to be a reason at all?

These days maybe, back then it was a little rougher on a woman who had relations before she was married
Times have changed.

These days, there are things like in vitro fertilization. If anything, I think that they would have been even quicker to assume that a pregnant woman was not a virgin in those days that we are today.

It is if you read all the prophesies from the old testament

But I'm talking generally. You yourself mentioned something about Adam being created by the Archangel Michael rather than directly by God... apparently, we have at least two methods that would create a human being (sex, and the powers of the Archangel Michael) that don't rely on God's direct hand.

Or by Jesus himself saying so, or by again John the Baptist, or after Joseph was told.

Right... but how did these people say that Jesus was the Son of God? Which one more fits the Gospel accounts:

- "Jesus is the Son of God, and I know this because an angel told me."
- "Jesus is the Son of God, and I know this because his mother was a virgin when she had him."

Born as a human by a virgin already alive beforehand in heaven remember.

Does this make a difference as to whether it's appropriate to draw an analogy with marriage?

Purity for his perfection as well as the symbolism

Would Christ have been any less perfect if He were born in some other way?

And don't notions of things like symbolism work against the idea that you're describing literal, historical fact? Symbolism is an aspect of literature and mythology, not history.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Who her? :flirt:

This incredible, awesome, wonderful lady who had EIGHT kids at ONCE! And this is after already having SIX kids.

She's really an inspiration to us all and the type of heroic individual who represents an ideal we should all strive for. I just can't say enough great stuff about this outstanding example of a human being.

Nadya Suleman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[adimus]

This incredible, awesome, wonderful lady who had EIGHT kids at ONCE! And this is after already having SIX kids.

She's really an inspiration to us all and the type of heroic individual who represents an ideal we should all strive for. I just can't say enough great stuff about this outstanding example of a human being.

Nadya Suleman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

She has/had the potential to be good looking too. She does look like this emoticon: :flirt: But the first pic reminds me of Cher.

 

[lockyfan]

Ah... so, you take Genesis 1:27 and 2:6 to be metaphor? If so, why can't you take the whole "born of a virgin" thing as metaphor as well?

I am actually using what we later find out in Proverbs chapter eight. That jesus was created and through him all other things were created

Ah - my mistake. I assumed you believed in the mainstream version of the Trinity, in which the Holy Spirit is God, but is a separate person (which I think implies something other than just "an active force") from the other persons of the Trinity. My fault for assuming.

i dont believe in the trinity. It makes no sense. Why would God send himself to earth, kill himself so that we can be saved? Jesus didnt go straight to heaven when he died, it took 3 days for him to be ressurected as an angel.

Ah... so, the mere fact that Mary was a virgin was never intended to convince anyone of anything, or to erase any doubt, right? It was only with all the explanation and testimony of the Bible that we were expected to believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

Earlier prophesies as well.

"Related to" does not necessarily imply "friend of".

They are all related. They are all spirit brothers. Plus if you use proverbs eight, Jesus helped to create the demons and satan, therefore technically Jesus is not satans son, but rather his father and brother because they are all ultimately Jehovahs creations

Right... so there was a ton of things that pointed to Jesus being the Son of God besides Mary's virginity when she had Him.

Yeah pretty much

But why do you consider it to be a reason at all?

Why not consider it as a reason?

These days, there are things like in vitro fertilization. If anything, I think that they would have been even quicker to assume that a pregnant woman was not a virgin in those days that we are today.

Yeah but family name and knowledge of the person was a lot more stronger then too. So the people all would have known she was not that kind of person

But I'm talking generally. You yourself mentioned something about Adam being created by the Archangel Michael rather than directly by God... apparently, we have at least two methods that would create a human being (sex, and the powers of the Archangel Michael) that don't rely on God's direct hand.

The power to create that was given by God. that power is the Holy Spirit

Right... but how did these people say that Jesus was the Son of God? Which one more fits the Gospel accounts:

- "Jesus is the Son of God, and I know this because an angel told me."
- "Jesus is the Son of God, and I know this because his mother was a virgin when she had him."

Both

Would Christ have been any less perfect if He were born in some other way?

yes if he were created by Mary and joseph together, He would have had sin as a inherited gene. If it wasnt for the fact that Jesus was here to die for use as a ransom so that we can have perfect life, Jesus would still be alive today, because he was a perfect man

And don't notions of things like symbolism work against the idea that you're describing literal, historical fact? Symbolism is an aspect of literature and mythology, not history.

Symbolism? its a fact, but the thing is nless you know the bible is true rather than mythic, you wont believe that one piece of fact