Embarrassing questions which cannot be asked

[Mr Spinkles]

In most religions, there seem to be a near-infinite number of questions which simply cannot be asked, because they are embarrassing.

For example, in Genesis why is Eve created from one of Adam's rib bones? Why not his femur, or toenail?

Or: why was Jesus born of a virgin woman? Why wasn't he born of a virgin man, or materialize out of thin air?

Or: why was the prophet Muhammad sent a winged horse to transport him from Mecca to Jerusalem and back? Why wasn't he sent a piloted helicopter, or a matter-transporter?

Or: why is the angel Moroni depicted blowing a trumpet to herald the second coming? Why not a blast from a tuba, or an electric guitar?

These are the kinds of questions kids are encouraged not to ask early on in the indoctrination process. They are questions which are embarrassing because "of course" the alternatives would be ridiculous and impossible....but then this exposes how ridiculous and impossible the original propositions are in the first place. The believer is constantly left mystified, saying "I guess that's just how god wanted it"....while the rest of us know perfectly well the answers: because these myths were written by provincial human beings, and thus reflects their particular human tastes and symbolisms.

We know perfectly well why Muhammad was sent a winged horse, according to the story: because ancient people had to trudge around in the desert for days and weeks just to reach a neighboring city, probably in a caravan staring at the back of a donkey's butt, while birds flew freely overhead. It's natural that they would fantasize about a horse with wings, that could fly like the birds, and take you across the world in a few days. You can even put a beautiful woman's face on the horse for good measure. (And why not a beautiful man's face? Because the authors and those in power were MEN, of course.)

 

[rojse]

In most religions, there seem to be a near-infinite number of questions which simply cannot be asked, because they are embarrassing.

For example, in Genesis why is Eve created from one of Adam's rib bones? Why not his femur, or toenail?

Or: why was Jesus born of a virgin woman? Why wasn't he born of a virgin man, or materialize out of thin air?

Or: why was the prophet Muhammad sent a winged horse to transport him from Mecca to Jerusalem and back? Why wasn't he sent a piloted helicopter, or a matter-transporter?

Or: why is the angel Moroni depicted blowing a trumpet to herald the second coming? Why not a blast from a tuba, or an electric guitar?

These are the kinds of questions kids are encouraged not to ask early on in the indoctrination process. They are questions which are embarrassing because "of course" the alternatives would be ridiculous and impossible....but then this exposes how ridiculous and impossible the original propositions are in the first place. The believer is constantly left mystified, saying "I guess that's just how god wanted it"....while the rest of us know perfectly well the answers: because these myths were written by provincial human beings, and thus reflects their particular human tastes and symbolisms.

Perhaps these choices are made because they have a symbolic value that cannot be replaced by the alternatives you espouse. The virgin woman would be the easiest example to give, since many societies placed a woman's value based partially on her sexual status.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Another good one: Why did God send his son, Jesus? Why not send his daughter Julia, or his wife Gosh, or his brother Bob?

Or: why were the Jews God's chosen people? Why not the Chinese, who had mathematics and literature and art which far surpassed the ancient Hebrews? (Answer: because no one believes the ENEMY tribe is the chosen one!)

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Perhaps these choices are made because they have a symbolic value that cannot be replaced by the alternatives you espouse. The virgin woman would be the easiest example to give, since many societies placed a woman's value based partially on her sexual status.

Right. This is a characteristic of a myth story. We wouldn't read an historical account of something real, like the invasion of Normandy in 1944, and say the reason paratroopers were used is because they symbolize freedom.

 

[rojse]

Right. This is a characteristic of a myth story.

But merely because we choose an object that has some value symbolically does not mean that the story has no truth whatsoever. That we choose a winged horse over a winged donkey might simply mean that we want our important person to ride a worthy animal, and a winged donkey simply does not cut the mustard in this regard (although I would take a winged donkey over a horse without any wings).

I'm merely arguing something I don't entirely believe to see what you say, obviously.

 

[rojse]

Another good one: Why did God send his son, Jesus? Why not send his daughter Julia, or his wife Gosh, or his brother Bob?

Why he didn't send a daughter down is a good question, but having a wife implies a pantheon of gods (can't have that, in spite of that Trinity thing that Christianity has going), and a brother implies a father, and that God mightn't be all that he is claimed to be.

Or: why were the Jews God's chosen people? Why not the Chinese, who had mathematics and literature and art which far surpassed the ancient Hebrews? (Answer: because no one believes the ENEMY tribe is the chosen one!)

That's a good question.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

But merely because we choose an object that has some value symbolically does not mean that the story has no truth whatsoever.

Well if the "embarrassing questions" cause you think the holy scriptures involve "we" (humans) "choosing" (not recording) objects in a "story" (not account), then you have rejected the claims of the religion. Now that we have rejected the religion and we agree the scriptures are in fact man-made stories, sure, we can talk about what truth there is in them just as we talk about the truth in any fictional, man-made story. My point is that such questions will inevitably cause us to reject most religions; that is why you are not supposed to ask them.

I'm merely arguing something I don't entirely believe to see what you say, obviously.

Sometimes I argue things I don't entirely believe, just to see what I say.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Mr. Sprinkles,

Embarrassing questions which cannot be asked
In most religions, there seem to be a near-infinite number of questions which simply cannot be asked, because they are embarrassing.

For example, in Genesis why is Eve created from one of Adam's rib bones? Why not his femur, or toenail?

Or: why was Jesus born of a virgin woman? Why wasn't he born of a virgin man, or materialize out of thin air?

Or: why was the prophet Muhammad sent a winged horse to transport him from Mecca to Jerusalem and back? Why wasn't he sent a piloted helicopter, or a matter-transporter?

Or: why is the angel Moroni depicted blowing a trumpet to herald the second coming? Why not a blast from a tuba, or an electric guitar?

Even after you are born in this century you are still asking questions accpeting the STORIES to be TRUE?

One has to move ahead only after understanding his present circumstances.
Love & rgds

 

[Katzpur]

I don't see those questions as embarrassing. I just see them as kind of silly.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Katzpur - what exactly is silly about them?

 

[fantome profane]

Why did God send his son, Jesus? Why not send his daughter Julia ...

Maybe “God” did send his daughter Julia down here. Who is to say he didn’t. Maybe she just went to work helping people without making a big fuss about it.

I mean you have to admit that that Jesus kid had a major martyr complex.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Maybe “God” did send his daughter Julia down here. Who is to say he didn’t. Maybe she just went to work helping people without making a big fuss about it.

I mean you have to admit that that Jesus kid had a major martyr complex.

While we're at it, why did Jesus have to be tortured and nailed to a cross in order to forgive human sin? Why couldn't he have merely been tarred and feathered? If the technology had been different, would he have been guillotined, shot, or gassed? Or are nails and a cross (in addition to torture and execution) intrinsically tied to "forgiveness" in some way that is only comprehensible to the divine mind? Was the torture and murder of Jesus on Earth in humanoid form enough to forgive alien sinners, or is an alien Jesus required on every planet with intelligent life on it?

 

[fantome profane]

While we're at it, why did Jesus have to be tortured and nailed to a cross in order to forgive human sin? Why couldn't he have merely been tarred and feathered? If the technology had been different, would he have been guillotined, shot, or gassed? Or are nails and a cross (in addition to torture and execution) intrinsically tied to "forgiveness" in some way that is only comprehensible to the divine mind? Was the torture and murder of Jesus on Earth in humanoid form enough to forgive alien sinners, or is an alien Jesus required on every planet with intelligent life on it?

Guillotines don’t looks so good worn on chains around the neck.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

But consider how ominous the symbol of the cross would have been at a time when roads were lined with the crucified bodies of criminals and rebel slaves. That people today view it as a symbol of hope and love just shows how plastic the human mind can be.

 

[fantome profane]

But consider how ominous the symbol of the cross would have been at a time when roads were lined with the crucified bodies of criminals and rebel slaves. That people today view it as a symbol of hope and love just shows how plastic the human mind can be.

Good point, but the cross symbol has other deeper meaning attached to it that predate the use of crucifixion as a means of execution and extend to other cultures.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur - what exactly is silly about them?

Are you serious? They're silly because the answers don't matter. They're inconsequential details about events that even the most devout believers recognize as part of an allegory. I don't believe Eve was created out of Adam's rib, but as far as I'm concerned a rib works as well as a femur. Who cares? To me, the point that was being made is that God created man and woman and that they have the same basic human form. It's called symbolism, Mr. Spinkles. I suppose Jesus was born of a virgin woman because women give birth, not men. The fact that the woman was said to be a virgin is what makes the story -- to those who believe it -- miraculous. Now maybe you could tell me what makes the questions embarrassing? I know I'd have been embarrassed to have wasted my time dreaming them up, but I wasn't the slightest bit embarrassed by the answers I gave.

 

[Charity]

Are you serious? They're silly because the answers don't matter. They're inconsequential details about events that even the most devout believers recognize as part of an allegory. I don't believe Eve was created out of Adam's rib, but as far as I'm concerned a rib works as well as a femur. Who cares? To me, the point that was being made is that God created man and woman and that they have the same basic human form. It's called symbolism, Mr. Spinkles. I suppose Jesus was born of a virgin woman because women give birth, not men. The fact that the woman was said to be a virgin is what makes the story -- to those who believe it -- miraculous. Now maybe you could tell me what makes the questions embarrassing? I know I'd have been embarrassed to have wasted my time dreaming them up, but I wasn't the slightest bit embarrassed by the answers I gave.

:bow: .......Katzpur, you deserve frubals for this post........

 

[idea]

In most religions, there seem to be a near-infinite number of questions which simply cannot be asked, because they are embarrassing.

For example, in Genesis why is Eve created from one of Adam's rib bones? Why not his femur, or toenail?

“The woman God made was not taken from man’s head to rule over him, nor from under his feet to be trampled upon by him but from his side that she might be his equal, from under his arm that she might receive his protection and from near his heart that she might own and command his love.”

Or: why was Jesus born of a virgin woman? Why wasn't he born of a virgin man, or materialize out of thin air?

Otherwise he would not be the only "begotten" of the Father... birth makes you a son, a beloved child of someone.

Or: why is the angel Moroni depicted blowing a trumpet to herald the second coming? Why not a blast from a tuba, or an electric guitar?

or harp - that seems to be the instrument of heaven... A harp is not loud enough, a tuba is too deep, an electric guitar too trendy....

hmmmm have to think about it.
Trump (see also Trumpet)
1 Cor. 15:52 in the twinkling of an eye, at the last t.
1 Thes. 4:16 voice of the archangel, and with the t. of God
Mosiah 26:25 when the second t. shall sound
Alma 29:1 I might ... speak with the t. of God
Morm. 9:13 all men shall be awakened ... when the t. shall sound
D&C 24:12 (36:1) declare my gospel as with the voice of a t.
D&C 29:13 t. shall sound ... they shall come forth
D&C 29:26 Michael ... shall sound his t.
D&C 33:2 (42:6) lift up your voices as with the sound of a t.
D&C 43:25 I called upon you ... by the great sound of a t.
D&C 45:45 before the arm of the Lord shall fall, an angel shall sound his t.
D&C 88:92 (88:99–110) angels shall fly through the midst of heaven ... sounding the t.
D&C 109:75 when the t. shall sound for the dead, we shall be caught up.
Trumpet (see also Trump)
Ex. 19:16 voice of the t. exceeding loud
Lev. 23:24 shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of t.
Lev. 25:9 shalt thou cause the t. of the jubile to sound
Num. 10:2 Make thee two t. of silver
Num. 10:8 priests, shall blow with the t.
Judg. 7:16 he put a t. in every man's hand
Isa. 27:13 in that day, that the great t. shall be blown
Isa. 58:1 lift up thy voice like a t.
Hosea 8:1 Set the t. to thy mouth
Joel 2:1 Blow ye the t. in Zion
Zeph. 1:16 day of the t. and alarm
Zech. 9:14 God shall blow the t.
Matt. 24:31 (JS-M 1:37) send his angels with a great sound of a t.
1 Cor. 14:8 if the t. give an uncertain sound
1 Cor. 15:52 t. shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
Rev. 8:2 to them were given seven t.
D&C 49:23 when the angel shall sound his t.
D&C 77:12 sounding of the t. of the seven angels.
(Topical Guide | T Trump:Entry - Trumpet:Entry)

These are the kinds of questions kids are encouraged not to ask early on in the indoctrination process. They are questions which are embarrassing because "of course" the alternatives would be ridiculous and impossible....but then this exposes how ridiculous and impossible the original propositions are in the first place. The believer is constantly left mystified, saying "I guess that's just how god wanted it"....while the rest of us know perfectly well the answers: because these myths were written by provincial human beings, and thus reflects their particular human tastes and symbolisms.

symbolism is the key. Parables / symbols are used so that everything can have depths of meaning rather than just what you see is what you get. Until able to see past the symbol to the mighty realities for which those symbols stand... Everyone is given what they can currently handle, that is done through parables.

 

[idea]

While we're at it, why did Jesus have to be tortured and nailed to a cross in order to forgive human sin?

cross was symbolic of the tree - the tree from Eden.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/76858-who-redeemed-9.html

#83 is my take on things.

 

[Valjean]

Why do so many churches support the military and Republican politics, when Jesus was so clearly a socialist pacifist? :run: