Dystheism: what would you do?

[Polymath257]

I got into a debate elsewhere earlier today with a group of Calvinists that were making fun of some meme that depicted a person saying that even if God existed, they would not worship God.

Several people pointed out that this was likely because of things like the Problem of Evil: the meme-maker was basically saying that God would be unworthy of worship even if one existed. That’s all beside the point, just background.

What caught my attention was one poster (one of the Calvinists I presume) that was saying such people were fools: that even if dystheism were true, they should worship the god to avoid infinite suffering in Hell.

Now, I disagree with this, of course. I don’t act on behalf of my values to gain anything, and I don’t avoid causing harm in order to avoid punishment. I act on behalf of my values because they are my values.

This person just kept saying that it would be foolish not to worship the god, and praise it, and do what the god commanded, and so on: even if the god commanded to harm people, or wanted praise for causing harm. I said I would never do this willingly. He again said this was foolish (and trust me, by this point I do not trust this man’s ethics/morality, because this seems like exactly the line of argument I imagine some Nazis gave: “I better follow orders for my own safety.” I would rather die than be a Nazi.)

So anyway, this got me to thinking of a horrible hypothetical. In the case of dystheism, where there is just an awful god, but said god is omnipotent and can cause you to suffer a lot for an infinite amount of time unless you followed its harmful commands or praised it for harming people or any number of nasty things: am I alone in saying that while my mind and will are my own (before I go too crazy from whatever tortures would be put upon me), I’d choose Hell over going against my values of not harming people and not praising monsters?

I would certainly be right there with Satan fighting this monster.

 

[RestlessSoul]

As a follow-on thought, isn't George Orwell's book 1984 an examination of human compliance in the face of an omnipresent, omnipotent force? How do you envision yourselves behaving under such conditions?

Yep, that was one of the central themes of the novel. Written in 1948 when the shadow of tyranny loomed over one half of Europe, and was fresh in the memory of the other.

We all like to think we'd have behaved nobly in those circumstances, but in truth none of us knows. Do you make a stand when your neighbours are dragged out in the street before dawn, or do you look the other way? History suggests that those taking a principled stand were in the minority.

A worse dilemma; what if you were an idealistic if confused young soldier in the Wehrmacht, engaged in the crusade against Bolshevism. You are pulled out of the frontline. Grateful for some respite from fighting the Red Army, you and your comrades are detailed to assist the Waffen SS in rounding up the Jewish inhabitants of a Ukrainian town. Of course, we'd all rather die than take a hand in genocide, right? That's what we'd like to believe, anyway. But we cannot know.

 

[Father Heathen]

What if God was a being who cared nothing about belief or worship, and who cultivated and fed off of human suffering? And what if what you did or believed made no difference in the end as there was no heaven and only hell awaited?

 

[SigurdReginson]

What if God was a being who cared nothing about belief or worship, and who cultivated and fed off of human suffering? And what if what you did or believed made no difference in the end as there was no heaven and only hell awaited?

Then that god's name would be Azathoth.

 

[Link]

You were a baby who know hardly anything and now dispute your Lord with some years on earth, as if you know better. I always knew problem of evil is a big factor to why people don't believe in God. But it's structure is an argument from ignorance. It assumes there are no possible explanations. If you have heard all explanations and you are unconvinced, that is a different matter.

 

[icehorse]

What caught my attention was one poster (one of the Calvinists I presume) that was saying such people were fools: that even if dystheism were true, they should worship the god to avoid infinite suffering in Hell.

Sadly, this proposition isn't too far from what some Christians would have us believe about their god. A horrible creature who you are commanded to love on pain of hellfire.

 

[sun rise]

they should worship the god to avoid infinite suffering in Hell.

The (female) sufi saint, Rabia said this prayer:

If I worship you for fear of hell, cast me into hell.
If I worship you for hope of heaven, deny me heaven.
But I I worship you for you alone, deny me not your presence.

The point is that there are lower emotions such as fear that should have no place in a believer.

 

[Link]

The (female) sufi saint, Rabia said this prayer:

If I worship you for fear of hell, cast me into hell.
If I worship you for hope of heaven, deny me heaven.
But I I worship you for you alone, deny me not your presence.

The point is that there are lower emotions such as fear that should have no place in a believer.

Fear is a protective love emotion. It's love, but seeks to protect. When you worry over a child, it's a type of fear, but that is nothing but love seeking to protect.

Appreciation/love has two wings, fear and hope. Fear is to safeguard what you been given and appreciates what it has and does not want to lose it and seeks to protect the soul, then there is hope which seeks increase and wants a greater reward.

Hope that stems out of fear is greater the fear then stems of out of hope, they are both good, but the former is superior. Fear is the greater of the two soldiers, although, your fear should not be more then your hope in God and your hope in God should never be more then your fear.

If you analyze love and appreciation, you will see fear and hope are two components, while their stabilizer is patience and it's head that keeps them going, is patience. And patience from another perspective is the holding on to God and his rope and his light.

Fear and hope are two soldiers of patience as well. Fear being the more important one for Michael to save us while hope is by which Gabriel perfects believers faith and brings them to higher levels.

The Angels of Michael will save all human souls if they fear God. And Gabriel's Angels will perfect them to degree they hope in God's reward and increase therein.

 

[Link]

I believe all emotions anger, fear, hate, they all have a proper place and when applied properly are virtues. When things not put in their proper place, for example, love that loves on falsehood and values on ignorant desires, then nothing is of virtue.

 

[Link]

Valuing as a protective measure is fear. Valuing as want to be increased is hope.

Though fear and hope should be equal, I believe it's intuitive the greater honor lies in protecting in what we have, because that's a greater form of appreciation and love.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... am I alone in saying that while my mind and will are my own (before I go too crazy from whatever tortures would be put upon me), I’d choose Hell over going against my values of not harming people and not praising monsters?

For me, such answers are far too easy unless and until I've been tested.

 

[viole]

I got into a debate elsewhere earlier today with a group of Calvinists that were making fun of some meme that depicted a person saying that even if God existed, they would not worship God.

Several people pointed out that this was likely because of things like the Problem of Evil: the meme-maker was basically saying that God would be unworthy of worship even if one existed. That’s all beside the point, just background.

What caught my attention was one poster (one of the Calvinists I presume) that was saying such people were fools: that even if dystheism were true, they should worship the god to avoid infinite suffering in Hell.

Now, I disagree with this, of course. I don’t act on behalf of my values to gain anything, and I don’t avoid causing harm in order to avoid punishment. I act on behalf of my values because they are my values.

This person just kept saying that it would be foolish not to worship the god, and praise it, and do what the god commanded, and so on: even if the god commanded to harm people, or wanted praise for causing harm. I said I would never do this willingly. He again said this was foolish (and trust me, by this point I do not trust this man’s ethics/morality, because this seems like exactly the line of argument I imagine some Nazis gave: “I better follow orders for my own safety.” I would rather die than be a Nazi.)

So anyway, this got me to thinking of a horrible hypothetical. In the case of dystheism, where there is just an awful god, but said god is omnipotent and can cause you to suffer a lot for an infinite amount of time unless you followed its harmful commands or praised it for harming people or any number of nasty things: am I alone in saying that while my mind and will are my own (before I go too crazy from whatever tortures would be put upon me), I’d choose Hell over going against my values of not harming people and not praising monsters?

I would probably not worship Him. Also because I think that an optimally evil God would send me to Hell, anyway. Even if I worship Him.

Ciao

- viole

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I got into a debate elsewhere earlier today with a group of Calvinists that were making fun of some meme that depicted a person saying that even if God existed, they would not worship God.

Several people pointed out that this was likely because of things like the Problem of Evil: the meme-maker was basically saying that God would be unworthy of worship even if one existed. That’s all beside the point, just background.

What caught my attention was one poster (one of the Calvinists I presume) that was saying such people were fools: that even if dystheism were true, they should worship the god to avoid infinite suffering in Hell.

Now, I disagree with this, of course. I don’t act on behalf of my values to gain anything, and I don’t avoid causing harm in order to avoid punishment. I act on behalf of my values because they are my values.

This person just kept saying that it would be foolish not to worship the god, and praise it, and do what the god commanded, and so on: even if the god commanded to harm people, or wanted praise for causing harm. I said I would never do this willingly. He again said this was foolish (and trust me, by this point I do not trust this man’s ethics/morality, because this seems like exactly the line of argument I imagine some Nazis gave: “I better follow orders for my own safety.” I would rather die than be a Nazi.)

So anyway, this got me to thinking of a horrible hypothetical. In the case of dystheism, where there is just an awful god, but said god is omnipotent and can cause you to suffer a lot for an infinite amount of time unless you followed its harmful commands or praised it for harming people or any number of nasty things: am I alone in saying that while my mind and will are my own (before I go too crazy from whatever tortures would be put upon me), I’d choose Hell over going against my values of not harming people and not praising monsters?

My problem with some worshippers is that they're all too ready to worship a being who would throw me in hell, alongside homosexuals, Hindus and anyone else who doesn't kneel.
If such a being exists, then he exists. I don't think he does, and they do. Fair enough. But to worship him?

Yew.

Couple of things to be clear.
(1) This type of God is not the most common flavour I come across in real life.
(2) I certainly do come across this flavour of God in real life.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

For me, such answers are far too easy unless and until I've been tested.

An omnipotent being could force me to do or say anything, either directly, or via various forms of torture, coercion, etc. I don't kid myself that I could actually offer much resistance. But still...there is submitting and there is worshipping.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Hm. Come to think of it, the Greek and Roman Gods weren’t a particularly benevolent bunch were they? Capricious and always needing to be appeased.

Hand a human enormous power, and you have a Greek God, with all the petty politics, malevolence, favouritism and occasional assistance that would imply.
It's one reason I love the old Greek myths.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But still...there is submitting and there is worshipping.

Worship can refer to attitude or to praxis or both.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Apparently so. There appears no limit to the things human beings are capable of believing in. And perhaps, by believing in something to the point whereby we allow that belief to direct our decisions, we manifest that something.

Which is rather a troubling thought, but also a liberating one; because if we can imagine horror into being, then we can also imagine love and compassion into being.

Of course it's a troubling thought! And, though I can only speak for myself, I think many of the non-theists on RF might agree with me, it is one of the reasons that I am interested in religion.It is certainly why Harris, Dawkins, Dennett and Hitchens (the "Four Horsemen") wrote and spoke so much about religion.

As human beings, our beliefs inform our actions. The kindest person in the Inca community, believing that the gods demand sacrifice, is perfectly content to watch the heart being cut out from a living youth. As long as he believed it was what God wanted, Abraham was prepared to sacrifice his only son. Islamic fanatics, believing that God will reward them for destroying non-believers, can fly planes (with themselves on it) into buildings. Christians who believe that "God hates ****" can bring themselves to do all kinds of cruelty to gay people that they would never consider doing to anybody else.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Hand a human enormous power, and you have a Greek God, with all the petty politics, malevolence, favouritism and occasional assistance that would imply.
It's one reason I love the old Greek myths.

That might explain Trump!

 

[Wildswanderer]

I've had multiple discussions with Calvinists over these very problems.
I believe they are distorting the scriptures when they find that God just creates some people for damnation and that they have no choice in the matter. Ironically, they never believe that they are those people.
However, in spite of their faulty theology I consider most of them fellow Christians.
I personally don't believe I could worship that God, and a lot of other Christians agree with me.
That doesn't mean I could not worship a God who punishes justly, because I do believe he does just that.
I don't know if anyone would stick to their guns when actually encountered with the choice of eternal punishment versus bowing down and worshiping a supreme Being, however. It's easy to say you would, but most people value comfort and self-preservation over most everything when it really comes down to it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The individual in the OP ( the one that concerns Meow) believes God is a morally superior being who decides what to make good or bad. That is tragic, to imagine that God could declare something evil to be good, making it good. This is what many people learn, but surely they know it makes no sense?

Perhaps people are too stupid for religion. We could be. We're too stupid for lots of other things that we have such as politics. We can eat with forks though, most of us. Its very discouraging.

Hand a human enormous power, and you have a Greek God, with all the petty politics, malevolence, favouritism and occasional assistance that would imply.
It's one reason I love the old Greek myths.

That or turn God into a being who chooses what is evil or good, and you have a Greek god with all the petty politics, malevolence, favoritism and occasional sexual trysts.

I would probably not worship Him. Also because I think that an optimally evil God would send me to Hell, anyway. Even if I worship Him.

Probably, and he'd probably marry you, too, just to make your life that much worse and to annoy the theists. We'd be like: "You can't do that Godddddd!!"

Sadly, this proposition isn't too far from what some Christians would have us believe about their god. A horrible creature who you are commanded to love on pain of hellfire.

Chick tracts are evidence of it. It can't be denied. I think its mind ****ery. Some would.