Dogs and Pigs are unclean means what??

[Secret Chief]

I need to give a boost to the pig and the dog, for balance against some of the **** being posted here.

"Pigs are highly intelligent animals, on par with dogs, and according to David DiSalvo's writing in Forbes, they are "widely considered the smartest domesticated animal in the world. Pigs can move a cursor on a video screen with their snouts and understand what is happening onscreen, and even learn to distinguish between the scribbles they knew from those they saw for the first time." "

(Dogs) "have advanced memory skills, and are able to read and react appropriately to human body language such as gesturing and pointing, and to understand human voice commands. Dogs demonstrate a theory of mind by engaging in deception. ( "Theory of mind" is the ability to attribute mental states—beliefs, intents, desires, pretending, knowledge, etc.—to oneself and others and to understand that others have beliefs, desires, intentions, and perspectives that are different from one's own.) "


(All quotes: Wikipedia)

 

[KWED]

I need to give a boost to the pig and the dog, for balance against some of the **** being posted here.

"Pigs are highly intelligent animals, on par with dogs, and according to David DiSalvo's writing in Forbes, they are "widely considered the smartest domesticated animal in the world. Pigs can move a cursor on a video screen with their snouts and understand what is happening onscreen, and even learn to distinguish between the scribbles they knew from those they saw for the first time." "

(Dogs) "have advanced memory skills, and are able to read and react appropriately to human body language such as gesturing and pointing, and to understand human voice commands. Dogs demonstrate a theory of mind by engaging in deception. ( "Theory of mind" is the ability to attribute mental states—beliefs, intents, desires, pretending, knowledge, etc.—to oneself and others and to understand that others have beliefs, desires, intentions, and perspectives that are different from one's own.) "


(All quotes: Wikipedia)

Pigs are certainly intelligent animals that keep themselves and their living spaces clean under normal conditions. My neighbour when I was young used to keep a couple of pigs and I have seen them drag their damp straw bedding out of the sty into the sun after a storm. They used one corner of the run as a toilet, and there was something vaguely human in their eyes when you got up close to give them a scratch behind the ear. A big part of me not eating meat today.

 

[paradox]

Rituals and sacrifices such as?

It depends ex:
Leviticus 15:18
Leviticus 13:3

I need to give a boost to the pig and the dog, for balance against some of the **** being posted here.

"Pigs are highly intelligent animals, on par with dogs...

What has this have to do with a pig being declared unclean by God?

 

[Secret Chief]

What has this have to do with a pig being declared unclean by God?

I thought I'd provide some compensatory facts. Pigs are as clean or unclean as humans, depending on the environment they live in. If you were forced to spend your life in a small enclosed area you'd not be smelling of roses.

 

[Secret Chief]

Posted by @paradox:

" It depends ex:

Leviticus 15:18

The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.

Leviticus 13:3

And the priest shall look on the plague in the skin of the flesh: and when the hair in the plague is turned white, and the plague in sight be deeper than the skin of his flesh, it is a plague of leprosy: and the priest shall look on him, and pronounce him unclean. "

And how are these two excerpts examples of making a person pure again after eating pork?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So, is there anything in religious scripture that should be taken literally? And if so, how do you know and how do you differentiate?

Actually I am not saying that, when the Muslims are told not to eat pork, it does not mean literally. But it is not really for the health reason. It is symbolic, and its meaning is not eating spiritual food from the false religious leaders. In the Quran, the false religious leaders were likened to pigs and apes.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is obvious nonsense because of the context of the prohibition. It presents a list of prohibited foods. Or are all the other items on those lists also metaphors for other things? If so, what?

Well, I am not making it up from myself. This is what Muhammad has said according to Hadith:



hadith attributed to Muhammad is essential in understanding the inward aspects of the Quran, and it is fundamental to Quranic exegesis:[10]

"The Quran possesses an external appearance and a hidden depth, an exoteric meaning and an esoteric meaning. This esoteric meaning in turn conceals an esoteric meaning so it goes on for seven esoteric meanings (seven depths of hidden depth)."
There is a statement made by the Imam, Jafar Sadiq (d. 765 CE):[10]

"The book of God comprises four things: the statement set down, the allusions, the hidden meanings relating to the supra-sensible world, and the exalted spiritual doctrines. The literal statement is for the ordinary believers. The allusions are the concern of the elite. The hidden meanings pertain to the friends of God. The exalted spiritual doctrines are the province of the prophets."




So, based on these Hadithes, a verse can have a literal meaning, but also, have several hidden symbolic meanings.

 

[KWED]

Actually I am not saying that,

Which brings in the second part of my question.
How do you know what is literal and what is symbolism and metaphor. You are claiming that the prohibition on pork in the Quran is symbolic and refers to false prophets, etc.
On what do you base than claim, because in the context of the Quran, it is one of the most clearly literal instructions in there.

when the Muslims are told not to eat pork, it does not mean literally. But it is not really for the health reason. It is symbolic, and its meaning is not eating spiritual food from the false religious leaders. In the Quran, the false religious leaders were likened to pigs and apes.

How do you know?
Not one single scholar seems to have picked up on it. Not even Muhammad and the sahabah. What do you know that no one else does?

 

[KWED]

Well, I am not making it up from myself.

Are you sure?

This is what Muhammad has said according to Hadith:

hadith attributed to Muhammad is essential in understanding the inward aspects of the Quran, and it is fundamental to Quranic exegesis:[10]

"The Quran possesses an external appearance and a hidden depth, an exoteric meaning and an esoteric meaning. This esoteric meaning in turn conceals an esoteric meaning so it goes on for seven esoteric meanings (seven depths of hidden depth)."
There is a statement made by the Imam, Jafar Sadiq (d. 765 CE):[10]

"The book of God comprises four things: the statement set down, the allusions, the hidden meanings relating to the supra-sensible world, and the exalted spiritual doctrines. The literal statement is for the ordinary believers. The allusions are the concern of the elite. The hidden meanings pertain to the friends of God. The exalted spiritual doctrines are the province of the prophets."

So, based on these Hadithes, a verse can have a literal meaning, but also, have several hidden symbolic meanings.

Sorry, but there are no hadith there stating that the prohibition on pork is metaphorical and refers to false teaching, not actual pig meat, which is actually permitted.

As I suspected, you've made this up yourself, haven't you?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Are you sure?

Sorry, but there are no hadith there stating that the prohibition on pork is metaphorical and refers to false teaching, not actual pig meat, which is actually permitted.

As I suspected, you've made this up yourself, haven't you?

Correct. I don't know if there are Hadithes that actually says that, the meaning of not eating Swine is, also metaphorical.
But the Hadith says, the verses of Quran have hidden meaning, which can be seven layers. It means, a verse can have 7 hidden meanings. This is consistent with verse 3:7, that No one knows its interpretation except God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge.
if we understand the teaching right, we can discover the hidden meanings.
Regarding the OP I think if I look I could find some Hadith, to support it but I don't have much time. So, upto you to accept or reject.


Now, for example, in Hadithes it is said:


"By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you as a just ruler, will break the Cross, kill the pig and abolish jizyah (a tax taken from the non-Muslims who are in the protection of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and nobody will accept charitable gifts. A single prostration (sajdah) will be better than the world and everything in it."

In this Hadith, the Prophet said, when Christ returns, He will kill the pig. It does not mean, literally He will go around and kill all pigs. But, this means, He will destroy evil attributes. Pig is just a symbol.

It is like, in Bible it is said, God forbade eating the fruit from tree of knowledge. It means feeding from man-made knowledge was forbidden, and instead feeding from knowledge of God was commanded.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Which brings in the second part of my question.
How do you know what is literal and what is symbolism and metaphor. You are claiming that the prohibition on pork in the Quran is symbolic and refers to false prophets, etc.
On what do you base than claim, because in the context of the Quran, it is one of the most clearly literal instructions in there.

How do you know?
Not one single scholar seems to have picked up on it. Not even Muhammad and the sahabah. What do you know that no one else does?

The Shia Imams, have done many metaphorical interpretations. They also told the principle of interpretation of Metaphorical verses.
But, as Quran says, it is a teaching and testing Book. There are clear verses, these are the foundations and teachings. The Metaphorical part is the test part.

It is like if you have a Book, that also includes tests in it.
so, if we understand the fundamental teachings, we can recognize what is metaphorical. Recognizing metaphors is a test in Quran.

The Imams have said, when a literal meaning of a verse contradicts the logic of the foundational teachings, then it is a Metaphorical verse.
So, the Quran teachings are more spiritual than physical even as it says:

"O you who have believed, respond to Allah and to the Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life. And know that Allah intervenes between a man and his heart and that to Him you will be gathered."

It means, it gives spiritual life. It cannot mean Quran gives physical life.

Or for example, it says

"And is one who was dead and We gave him life and made for him light by which to walk among the people like one who is in darkness, never to emerge therefrom? Thus it has been made pleasing to the disbelievers that which they were doing."

Here, the Dead that was given life, has a spiritual meaning. It has nothing to do with physically resurrection.

If we see Quran as a spiritual Book, we then must ask, what's the point of not eating swine, in terms of spiritual life? Here we can see, its hidden meaning. It has a spiritual meaning.

It is like fasting. Even fasting is about not eating or drinking, but it is known, that in fact its purpose is spiritual. It is not primarily for the physical health reason.
I am discussing the reason behind prohibitions.

 

[KWED]

Correct. I don't know if there are Hadithes that actually says that, the meaning of not eating Swine is, also metaphorical.

But that is merely your opinion and you have nothing to support that.

But the Hadith says, the verses of Quran have hidden meaning, which can be seven layers. It means, a verse can have 7 hidden meanings. This is consistent with verse 3:7, that No one knows its interpretation except God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge.
if we understand the teaching right, we can discover the hidden meanings.
Regarding the OP I think if I look I could find some Hadith, to support it but I don't have much time. So, upto you to accept or reject.

But that would imply that every verse is, or at least can be assumed to be metaphorical, with several layers of different meanings - yet you said that some of the Quran has only one literal meaning, and we know which they are.
So, why do you claim the verses prohibiting pork are metaphorical and not literal?

 

[KWED]

The Shia Imams, have done many metaphorical interpretations. They also told the principle of interpretation of Metaphorical verses.

But they all think the prohibition on pork is literal.

But, as Quran says, it is a teaching and testing Book. There are clear verses, these are the foundations and teachings. The Metaphorical part is the test part.

But those verses might be metaphorical and not meant to be taken literally.

It is like fasting. Even fasting is about not eating or drinking, but it is known, that in fact its purpose is spiritual. It is not primarily for the physical health reason.

So the command to fast is not literal. It is a metaphor for spiritual abstinence. It is actually ok to actually eat and drink.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But that is merely your opinion and you have nothing to support that.

But that would imply that every verse is, or at least can be assumed to be metaphorical, with several layers of different meanings - yet you said that some of the Quran has only one literal meaning, and we know which they are.
So, why do you claim the verses prohibiting pork are metaphorical and not literal?

Now, for example, in Hadithes it is said:


"By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you as a just ruler, will break the Cross, kill the pig and abolish jizyah (a tax taken from the non-Muslims who are in the protection of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and nobody will accept charitable gifts. A single prostration (sajdah) will be better than the world and everything in it."

In this Hadith, the Prophet said, when Christ returns, He will kill the pig. It does not mean, literally He will go around and kill all pigs. But, this means, He will destroy evil attributes. Pig is just a symbol.

It is like, in Bible it is said, God forbade eating the fruit from tree of knowledge. It means feeding from man-made knowledge was forbidden, and instead feeding from knowledge of God was commanded

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But they all think the prohibition on pork is literal.

But those verses might be metaphorical and not meant to be taken literally.

So the command to fast is not literal. It is a metaphor for spiritual abstinence. It is actually ok to actually eat and drink.

Fasting or not eating Swine, is a literal command. But they are rituals, based on symbolism. Fasting is abstinence from sins in general. So, when Muslims Fast, if they sin, their fast is not acceptable. So, although it is outwardly about avoiding food, it is about practicing detachment from worldly desires, and sins, so, they may become more spiritual beings.

 

[KWED]

Now, for example, in Hadithes it is said:


"By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you as a just ruler, will break the Cross, kill the pig and abolish jizyah (a tax taken from the non-Muslims who are in the protection of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and nobody will accept charitable gifts. A single prostration (sajdah) will be better than the world and everything in it."

In this Hadith, the Prophet said, when Christ returns, He will kill the pig. It does not mean, literally He will go around and kill all pigs. But, this means, He will destroy evil attributes. Pig is just a symbol.

Perhaps, but that is not the verses clearly and explicitly prohibiting eating the meat of swine (as well as other foods).
Why do you claim those verses are not meant to be taken literally?

It is like, in Bible it is said, God forbade eating the fruit from tree of knowledge. It means feeding from man-made knowledge was forbidden, and instead feeding from knowledge of God was commanded

That was literally a tree in the garden of eden. There was no "man-made knowledge" there until they ate from the tree.
Or are we back to your claim that every verse is a metaphor?

 

[KWED]

Fasting or not eating Swine, is a literal command.

Hold on. You've been claiming that it was just a metaphor for not listening to false prophets.
Now you admit that it is actually a literal prohibition on eating pig meat.
Why have you been wasting our time?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Perhaps, but that is not the verses clearly and explicitly prohibiting eating the meat of swine (as well as other foods).
Why do you claim those verses are not meant to be taken literally?

It cannot be proven that, Swine also have a symbolic meaning in the verses that prohibited eating it. But it might have both a literal and spiritual meaning, considering that Muhammad Said its verses can have seven hidden meanings.

That was literally a tree in the garden of eden. There was no "man-made knowledge" there until they ate from the tree.
Or are we back to your claim that every verse is a metaphor?

The Authors of Bible did not say, everything they wrote are to be taken literally. We know before Adam there were people living for many generations, and God must have sent them also Prophets before Adam. So, the story of Adam can just be understood as beginning of a human cycle, since about 6000 years ago.
In traditions it was said after 6000 years the world ends, and a new world begins. Interestingly, Quran said 1000 years after Islam, End comes, and then a new creation appears. Most people agree since 19th century a new human era started.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Hold on. You've been claiming that it was just a metaphor for not listening to false prophets.
Now you admit that it is actually a literal prohibition on eating pig meat.
Why have you been wasting our time?

It is a literal act, but it is symbolic act, with a meaning. Rituals have meanings. So, Swine is a symbol of lust, or uncleanness.
Certainly it is illogical to think that, God will punish people for eating Swine literally. But it is logical to think God will punish people for eating wrong spiritual food, if we think of Swine as a symbol, meaning a bad spiritual food.
Just as body needs food, so does the Soul. The food of body is known. But the food of Soul, is less known. That food is provided by words of God. Swine is a symbol of falsehood, which is like a bad food that kills the Soul. This is prohibited really.

 

[paradox]

And how are these two excerpts examples of making a person pure again after eating pork?

In all cases you would need a priest to give you directions on how to become clean again.