Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

[SkepticThinker]

It's extremely spurious to listen to God haters scream for justice, when most of them are gratuitously aggressive and definitively mean-spirited.

This doesn't answer the question or address the point. You're just trying to say "look over there!" in some attempt to take the focus off your comments.

This is what I sensed from whoever it was that I made the response to (i forget the name), and what appears to be the case for most of them.
They're hypocritical and virtue signaling in my opinion - I don't mind rebuking that.

Oopsy, this little exercise in psychological projection doesn't answer the question or address the point either.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sorry, would that be why does God allow so much suffering, and even mandate or inflict it Himself?
I did, and I got nothing but a punkish answer from the guy - reasoning wasn't an option anymore, in my opinion.
If you care to read the post that elicited the above response, we can address what you might agree or disagree with. ...I don't remember all the details right now in order to recapitulate what I said.

No, you didn't. You gave a flippant, condescending response instead that addressed nothing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You don't actually expect me to respond to the entirety of your post, do you?
You must even be surprised that I read it all ...I was curious to see how much effort you did in compiling all the quotes from so many different threads. But, too many contexts to try and address each one cogently.

Either way, if God does not exist, then theist need to be not taken serious in any aspect of their lives. But, if God does exist, then shame on all the atheists for being so oblivious and evil minded.

Which God(s)?

How could you be so oblivious and evil minded as to not acknowledge the existence of the great Thor! For shame!

Oh, you didn't mean Thor? Hmmm ...

I think that's all your dismissive and condescending post deserves. Go think on that.

 

[F1fan]

Atheists are very irrational,

As a category? This is your claim, where is the evidence and explanation? You offer none, so it is dimissed.

I find them to be shallow and oblivious - if they can't see it, then it doesn't exist. How unperceptive and absurd.

Like the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny, so these two must exist because they are beieved to be real? Reason follows evidence, not assumptions. Religious folks, like yourself, make unwarranted assumvtions that are not based on fact, and that is not reason. Theists don't use reason to make conclusions, they adopt dogma and assume it is true for various reasons.

Can you see the spirit in man, do you recognize a corrupt person when you meet them, do you know why one person feels compassion towards others and another doesn't?

I see there are many types of people, some who are naturally wise, some who are naturally empathetic, some who are naturally intelligent, some who have various natural traits and abilities that represent the best humans can be. But there are also many who are born socipaths, and there is nothing they can do to be empathetic due to the genetic fault. There are naturally mean and cruel people, some with mental health issues and some with bad social attitudes. We see religion can help good people be good, but we don;t see religion make bad people good. Se see some folks use religion as a tool for their cruelty and vice, like calling atheists irrational, as if their judgment is authoritative and absolute for just being stated. So you ask if I can recognize a corrupt person, or even a corrupt spirit, yes I can. If theists are going to claim a sort of superiority and depth, they had better be sure they live these high ideals.

What an 'atheist observes'? What's that, an oxymoron?

Are you suggesting all atheists are blind, too? How it this an oxymoron? Use facts.

How would you know if any claim that I made was nonfactual?

When it isn't based on facts.

For one, only time will tell, and two, it aligns with Scripture which declares that 'God will wipe away all tears', and that 'one must become like children to enter the kingdom' - all children may be deemed innocent up to a certain age or exposure. The latter is just my personal opinion, which I have already explained in a previous post.

Time will tell? That suggests we don't know, and that means uncertainty. I treat uncertainty without assuming the idea true, as i require some evidence that any given idea is true, and plausible. Theists are notorious for believing implausible ideas that lack facts, or any sort of credible evidence. If believers had evidence, they would present it instead of making false accusations against atheists.

I don't have all the answers and I am troubled by many, but the questions that you god-hating atheists always pose are not deal-breakers for the faithful - we understand more of the spiritual realm than you atheists ever will.

"God-hating"? We don't hate imaginary characters. And atheists don't hate theists, quite the opposite. We engage is debate and you are free to come or leave and be part of the ongoing discussion. Being rude and demeaning only suggests to us you are upset and not able to manage your feelings when facing critique. That is your problem, not a fault of critical thinkers. Making untrue statements about atheists also shows us something about you and where you are on your spiritual path. To me you seem to think you are farther along than what your attitude and meanness suggests. These forums offer us an oppirtunity to understand how others see us, and if we really wanted to be at peace and in balance it is good to listen to what others say, and reflect.

It's one thing to have claims about virtue, it is another to live those virtues sincerely.

There is much more evidence for God and the human spirit being created in His image, than you atheists can ever challenge with your impetuous and insincere contentions.

Notice you don't offer this "much more evidence", but only claim it exists. Why is that? It's as if you are bluffing. Well, I call. Show us your cards.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It's called virtue signaling. Similar to those who call anti-lgbtq advocates bigots - they are some of the nastiest and most judgmental people that i've met, seriously.
I forget who it was that I made that remark to about '..quit playing bleeding heart...', but all his post showed, in my opinion, a very punkish and abrasive attitude. He was trying to appear appalled at my remark, but did so in an extremely obnoxious manner - i said many things in that post, but he only heard that one - he's foolish. I believe that he was just using the issue to hide his real character. God haters and the defenders of sexual liberties are all hypocrites I've come to notice, they are trying to appear just and compassionate but they are anything but.

Projection.

Drowning children does seem cruel, because it is presumed that they are too young to understand right from wrong, and therefore are innocent.
I forget exactly how i explained it in that post, but, first, what God has in store for all of us, despite how bad we've all been, will be ineffable, beyond description and justification. As far as children dying are concerned, in my own personal opinion, I believe that there may be extenuation on their behalf on judgement day - that is why this life is of very little concern as to who dies when - it is unjust for many people for that matter. What God has in store for the 'innocent' and repentant, will outweigh all suffering and sorrows that took place in this world.

"very little concern as to who dies when" ...

That's but one of the reasons I wholeheartedly reject your religion. This total lack of concern toward the death of children. Because there's maybe some better life for them somewhere after they die. Ugh.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Thanks. Agreed. He's trying to save face now. He came on with assumed expertise, arrogance, and condescension but bellied up quickly when challenged on his hostility toward unbelievers. He was called out for a series of comments revealing his atheophobic bigotry and chose to ignore them all by instead deflecting away from his comments and my critique of them.

The modern religious apologist is disoriented by the modern skeptic's confidence. When I was born in the middle of the last century, theists were accustomed to silencing those critics foolish enough to challenge their cultural hegemony. Atheists were declared immoral, and it was accepted. They were deemed unfit to teach, adopt, coach, serve on juries or give expert testimony, and many considered an atheist marrying into the family worse than any other marginalized, law-abiding group including homosexuals and Muslims.

That's almost all gone now, although many still see atheists as unfit to hold public office. And with the rise of the best-selling atheist writers and the Internet, atheists have a voice and are respectable outside of church circles. It's the church that gets no respect now. Look at how it's treated in the entertainment media. When are priests or pastors shown as moral leaders, or the church as a force for good in movies and television?

This video from a hugely popular nineties sitcom says it all, and it's actually a little more balanced than most, with some semi-positive comments about God and the religious:

This one's pretty funny as well:

What's the message in those? Is it that the church is respectable or the opposite? And it's hammered into the culture 24/7 now. That can only lead to one outcome, and the rise of the "nones" confirms it.

But the believer isn't watching those shows. He's going to church, where things as are they were a half a century ago, where everybody still respects the pastor and nobody gives him back talk. Then he encounters modern secular culture as is the case here on RF, and he's surprised.

And this isn't his only cultural crisis. People are getting darker and gayer and coming up with new pronouns to offend and confound him. Women want to be treated as equals and not fondled at work. He's having more trouble hiring wage slaves. People are openly calling him bigot, and he really doesn't like that. His advantages all seem to be slipping away, and he is afraid of "being replaced." He can only take comfort by reporting to us that it is all foretold and part of God's plan.

I just love when you share Seinfeld clips! The most relevant and quotable show ever aired on television.

 

[Ashoka]

It's extremely spurious to listen to God haters scream for justice, when most of them are gratuitously aggressive and definitively mean-spirited.

Your religion literally burned people alive. Sit down.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Atheists are very irrational, I find them to be shallow and oblivious - if they can't see it, then it doesn't exist. How unperceptive and absurd.
Can you see the spirit in man, do you recognize a corrupt person when you meet them, do you know why one person feels compassion towards others and another doesn't?

What an 'atheist observes'? What's that, an oxymoron?
How would you know if any claim that I made was nonfactual? For one, only time will tell, and two, it aligns with Scripture which declares that 'God will wipe away all tears', and that 'one must become like children to enter the kingdom' - all children may be deemed innocent up to a certain age or exposure. The latter is just my personal opinion, which I have already explained in a previous post.

I don't have all the answers and I am troubled by many, but the questions that you god-hating atheists always pose are not deal-breakers for the faithful - we understand more of the spiritual realm than you atheists ever will.
There is much more evidence for God and the human spirit being created in His image, than you atheists can ever challenge with your impetuous and insincere contentions.

This is just another lecture about how much you dislike atheists, rather than a clarification or demonstration of the veracity of your position.

We get it, you really, really, really hate atheists.

 

[F1fan]

Earth to F1fan, earth to F1fan, come in F1fan, are you there (usually not)?
...try reading the flippin' posts???

And by the way, do forget to answer my question:

So explain why God will create some children with birth defects, or some sort of fatal cancer. Let's hear the justification.

If you don't have answers, just admit you don't have answers.

 

[F1fan]

Your religion literally burned people alive. Sit down.

That's correct. About 30,000 people (about 420,000 in todays number) were tortured and executed in Europe during the 17th century. This went out of favor eventually, so did they get all the witches? Or did public outcry become so unberable that the Christian authority feared for their own lives if they kept up the torture and executions? Men being the middlemen for God can only go so far when their actions are immoral. Yet they keep trying to create an "other" to vilify. It's no longer witches, as now it is gays, liberals, trans kids, non-traditional people, atheists, the educated, and so on. Any group that an ignorant congragation can target will be used by religious authority.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Your religion literally burned people alive. Sit down.

:Winner Frubal:

 

[muhammad_isa]

So explain why God will create some children with birth defects, or some sort of fatal cancer. Let's hear the justification.

..so explain why mankind gave thalidomide to pregnant women..
..explain why they pollute environments with industrial pollution and lead fumes etc. etc.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Atheists are very irrational, I find them to be shallow and oblivious - if they can't see it, then it doesn't exist. How unperceptive and absurd.

You're not so shallow or oblivious as to reject Santa because he is nowhere to be seen, are you? That would be unperceptive and absurd.

What I find absurd is believing that something that generates no detectable phenomena exists. Once one divorces himself from evidence, he is untethered to reality and now lives in the world of his imagination. He has no means to distinguish between what is really out there and what he has imagined but evidence, without which, he lives in an absurd world of his own creation.

do you know why one person feels compassion towards others and another doesn't?

Religion? It's got you hating atheists.

How would you know if any claim that I made was nonfactual?

The same way any false claim is falsified. The same way that the claim of the existence of the Abrahamic god has been falsified by the evidence supporting evolution.

the faithful - we understand more of the spiritual realm than you atheists ever will.

You've got that backward. Christianity is the antithesis of spirituality, which, incidentally, has nothing to do with spirits. It has to do with a warm sense of connection to our world and of being of it and belonging in it, and is associated with a sense of awe, mystery, and gratitude. Nature is sacred. The atheists and polytheists (Dharmics, pagans, earth religions) have retained that connection to our reality, which is where authentic spirituality resides. The Abrahamic religion have done violence to that, stripping the sacred from nature and vesting it in an imaginary being that is not part of nature and has no respect for nature, matter, or flesh, and which has awakened in the reassignment, built a hell, and gave us orders on how to live that include all manner of bigotries as well as the subordination of skepticism and the reasoning faculty to faith. Sorry, but that's not even close to spiritual.

There is much more evidence for God and the human spirit being created in His image, than you atheists can ever challenge with your impetuous and insincere contentions.

The god you believe in has almost nothing in common with a human being. It would be an alien to us.

 

[The Hammer]

Im not sure i go for "prison conversions" so much. I think it's more a way of lowering the percentage of Christians in nick.

"About three-quarters of the chaplains say that a lot (26%) or some (51%) religious switching occurs among inmates in the prisons where they work. Many chaplains report growth from religious switching in the numbers of Muslims and Protestant Christians, in particular."

Religion in Prisons - A 50-State Survey of Prison Chaplains

According to a survey of professional prison chaplains, America’s state penitentiaries are a bustle of religious activity. Chaplains say that efforts by inmates to convert other inmates are common and that at least some religious switching occurs. And chaplains overwhelmingly consider...

www.pewresearch.org

 

[ChristineM]

"About three-quarters of the chaplains say that a lot (26%) or some (51%) religious switching occurs among inmates in the prisons where they work. Many chaplains report growth from religious switching in the numbers of Muslims and Protestant Christians, in particular."

Religion in Prisons - A 50-State Survey of Prison Chaplains

According to a survey of professional prison chaplains, America’s state penitentiaries are a bustle of religious activity. Chaplains say that efforts by inmates to convert other inmates are common and that at least some religious switching occurs. And chaplains overwhelmingly consider...

www.pewresearch.org

INFORMATIVE

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

"About three-quarters of the chaplains say that a lot (26%) or some (51%) religious switching occurs among inmates in the prisons where they work. Many chaplains report growth from religious switching in the numbers of Muslims and Protestant Christians, in particular."

Religion in Prisons - A 50-State Survey of Prison Chaplains

According to a survey of professional prison chaplains, America’s state penitentiaries are a bustle of religious activity. Chaplains say that efforts by inmates to convert other inmates are common and that at least some religious switching occurs. And chaplains overwhelmingly consider...

www.pewresearch.org

It's ironic how many prisoners suddenly find Jesus when they are up for parole.

 

[DNB]

This doesn't answer the question or address the point. You're just trying to say "look over there!" in some attempt to take the focus off your comments.

Oopsy, this little exercise in psychological projection doesn't answer the question or address the point either.

You made a point somewhere?

 

[DNB]

As a category? This is your claim, where is the evidence and explanation? You offer none, so it is dimissed.

Like the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny, so these two must exist because they are beieved to be real? Reason follows evidence, not assumptions. Religious folks, like yourself, make unwarranted assumvtions that are not based on fact, and that is not reason. Theists don't use reason to make conclusions, they adopt dogma and assume it is true for various reasons.

I see there are many types of people, some who are naturally wise, some who are naturally empathetic, some who are naturally intelligent, some who have various natural traits and abilities that represent the best humans can be. But there are also many who are born socipaths, and there is nothing they can do to be empathetic due to the genetic fault. There are naturally mean and cruel people, some with mental health issues and some with bad social attitudes. We see religion can help good people be good, but we don;t see religion make bad people good. Se see some folks use religion as a tool for their cruelty and vice, like calling atheists irrational, as if their judgment is authoritative and absolute for just being stated. So you ask if I can recognize a corrupt person, or even a corrupt spirit, yes I can. If theists are going to claim a sort of superiority and depth, they had better be sure they live these high ideals.

Are you suggesting all atheists are blind, too? How it this an oxymoron? Use facts.

When it isn't based on facts.

Time will tell? That suggests we don't know, and that means uncertainty. I treat uncertainty without assuming the idea true, as i require some evidence that any given idea is true, and plausible. Theists are notorious for believing implausible ideas that lack facts, or any sort of credible evidence. If believers had evidence, they would present it instead of making false accusations against atheists.

"God-hating"? We don't hate imaginary characters. And atheists don't hate theists, quite the opposite. We engage is debate and you are free to come or leave and be part of the ongoing discussion. Being rude and demeaning only suggests to us you are upset and not able to manage your feelings when facing critique. That is your problem, not a fault of critical thinkers. Making untrue statements about atheists also shows us something about you and where you are on your spiritual path. To me you seem to think you are farther along than what your attitude and meanness suggests. These forums offer us an oppirtunity to understand how others see us, and if we really wanted to be at peace and in balance it is good to listen to what others say, and reflect.

It's one thing to have claims about virtue, it is another to live those virtues sincerely.

Notice you don't offer this "much more evidence", but only claim it exists. Why is that? It's as if you are bluffing. Well, I call. Show us your cards.

We have a fundamental disagreement between us, or atheists and theists - You believe that all man's behaviour, whether good or bad, is derived from either genetics or chemical ratios within their biology. I believe it stems from the disposition of their heart - the spirit in man.

All man's struggles and conflicts on this earth is not on the grounds of survival, pragmatism or rationality, as would be expected from a being created from the same substance as all other things within his environment - a symbiotic relationship should've be necessitated.
But, rather, man's greed, selfishness, arrogance, pretense, entitlement, perversions, depravity, etc... dictate all his actions. This is the sole problem in the world - the spiritual warfare that wages in man's heart, causing him, more often that not, to make the wrong and self-serving decisions.

 

[DNB]

Religion? It's got you hating atheists.

I do, in a sense - I entirely question their sincerity and objectivity. You do not want to believe despite the axiomatic evidence.

Like I said, can anyone of you explain the gratuitous and unfathomable atrocities in the world? And if you naively and ineptly try playing the 'chemical' card again, then consider how many humans that you have to label as such. And then, explain why such a large and predominant demography of humans, a product of nature itself (according to you), behave in such a manner that is so antithetical to the betterment of man, society and nature?

Like I keep saying, you just don't see the evidence. ...and not one of you god-haters have even remotely understood a thing being said here.
You come back with idiotic replies about comparing the landslide majority of people who have ever lived on the planet having worshipped something, with that of the belief in Santa Claus. Where in the world did 90% of the human inhabitants on this earth acquire such a propensity, how did protoplasm and stardust endow man with such a spiritual dimension to his constitution?

Billions of dollars spent on religious edifices, religious education, literature, debates, degrees, sermons,. missionary efforts, martyrdoms, asceticism, dissertations on virtue and morality - you don't believe that man is a spiritual creature?

And, all that for something that doesn't even exist? Dawkins called it delusionary - he was wrong - it's flippin' insanity if there is no God.
Now, again, explain via your big-bang or evolution theory, how 90% of humans, the most intellectually advanced creature on the planet, became so insane, deluded, incompetent or dysfunctional - take your pick?

 

[DNB]

Your religion literally burned people alive. Sit down.

You're sounding childish, Ashoka - Jesus never told anyone to kill in his name.
Are you so naïve that you can't tell the difference between a charlatan, and a devout believer?