If magic means something that you don't know, then I can accept that magic is real.
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Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?
- Thread starter 9-10ths_Penguin
- Start date
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
..sometimes we like that which isn't good for us, and dislike that which is bad for us.
Too much freedom leads to immorality and enmity.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
You say this, but the actual facts demonstrate the opposite.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
No. Magic means those things that require a violation / suspension of the laws of physics, which certainly is the case here.
Heyo
Veteran Member
You surely don't. And what are the odds? Every time you (or anybody else) goes swimming, you conduct an experiment on conservation of mass and on buoyancy. Trillions of experiments with always the same outcome. Believing that nature would make an exception is believe in magic and it is based purely on the wish that it could happen without any explanation and without any evidence.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Or that there is a limit to what objective reality is in itself including but not limited to God.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
"actual facts"?
..a brief spell of "whoopy" followed by disaster and grief.
Sorry, I disagree with that. But, maybe it is because we have a different definition for magic. I don't really know what you even mean with the word magic.
However, I believe this world is much like the virtual reality in the Matrix movie. Twisting this doesn't necessary require magic, one just have to have better grasp of things to do "miracles".
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Yes, actual facts
(...) the correlation is clear: the most secular societies on earth with the highest rates of non-belief fare much better, on average, than the most religious, strongly-believing societies. While understanding that correlation does not equal causation, this article still maintains that theism is clearly not the societal panacea many claim it to be, nor is atheism a source of societal degradation.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
What a lot of nonsense!
You are entitled to believe what you like .. and choose to read whatever you like.
..as am I.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Numbers don't lie.
You can call it "nonsense" all you want, if that makes you feel better.
Not really sure how sticking your head in the sand helps you though.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
On the contrary .. they often do.
It's all about how one dresses it up using statistics.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Yes, some people accept evidence, others don't, and choose to believe whatever they want, regardless of what the evidence indicates.
Guess which one is rational, and which one isn't.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I find that people who say such things, don't actually understand statistics.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
There's not much to "dress" up when talking raw numbers like infant mortality, life expectancy, literacy, accessibility / affordability of education / health care, crime rates, domestic violence rates, teenage pregnancy rates, divorce rates, etc etc etc.
These are the results of large scale studies.
Again, you can stick your head in the sand if you want. But again, I don't see how that is a helpful stance to take.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
I don't stick my head in the sand..
..I'm just careful not to make the wrong conclusions from a set of data.
What you want us all to believe, is that it is in our best interests to follow your way of life.
I can never agree, however wonderful and attractive it may appear to be.
I am certain that it will end in disaster.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
I feel the same way about both you and TagliatelliMonster. Go figure.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Didn't sound so to me.
That, to me, is the reaction of someone denying reality.
And that is your interpretation. It is never a good idea to assume a motive when you can just as easily ask.
I don't know @TagliatelliMonster's intention but when I state a fact I expect my interlocutor to agree upon it or convince me that they aren't. After we agree upon the facts, we can discuss the implications. You don't have to agree that physical well-being is an objective good, it's a value judgement. You are entitled to your own opinion - but you are not entitled to your own facts.
Ella S.
*temp banned*
You're absolutely right. It is logically if not metaphysically possible that our current understanding of the laws of physics is flawed, to the point that someone could walk on water.Sorry, I disagree with that. But, maybe it is because we have a different definition for magic. I don't really know what you even mean with the word magic.
However, I believe this world is much like the virtual reality in the Matrix movie. Twisting this doesn't necessary require magic, one just have to have better grasp of things to do "miracles".
However, would you believe me if I told you that I have walked on water?
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
It is quite clear to me, that citing such statistics is for one purpose.
..to claim superiority.
We are not agreed on the "facts" .. I do not agree that "numbers don't lie".
They can be manipulated, and unreliable conclusions can be made.
Of course physical well-being is an objective good.
..but if it is not sustainable, or is at the expense of others..