Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[shawn001]

I've been meditating for 35 years and I think there is a basis for saying that. But I have no idea what the benefits of meditation have to do with ideas of an intelligent universe or cosmic consciousness or whatever. I just don't see a connection and frankly the whole discussion on meditation, while interesting, looks completely off-topic to me.

I agree.

 

[shawn001]

I consider the "the universe formed out of nothing or a point source" concept nonsense.

Everything in this universe rotates including the universe itself. Although the current rate of universal rotation is minuscule in the order of 10^-13 radius per sec, if we go back in time, where the universe would appear to shrink rather than expand then the Law of conservation of angular momentum implies the earlier universe must have been rotating faster. If we follow this through we reach a point where if we reduce the radius any more then the outer reaches would approach relativistic speeds and we would have to break the next axiom of classical physics and exceed the speed of light to shrink any more. I therefore hypothesis the smallest the universe could have been is a disk or sphere geometry with a minimum diameter of around 30000 km spinning with a very high angular velocity. Ok if we don't want to break the Angular Momentum or Speed of light Laws, then where did all this angular momentum come from if it originated from nothing or a point. The only explanation that fits is that this universe was derived from a previous collapsing spinning earlier universe so the angular momentum is conserved. An oscillating universe expand, contract expand contract ad infinitum.

Ok so why is the current measured rate of expansion apparently increasing instead of decreasing if this were true?

There were vast quantities of photons generated in the early stages of the early universe especially after the initial matter/antimatter annihilation.
If we now consider these photons as an outward moving shell of photons travelling spherically will have a radius today of around 13.7 billion light years.
Matter however has a much higher inertia and in the same period has expanded to a far lesser extent as it is not traveling at relativistic speeds. Therefore in my mind we have a sphere of matter within a sphere of photons. Further as electrons have an intermediate tiny mass I would suggest our main matter universe is also surrounded by an intermediate shell of electrons. In effect this would make the "matter universe (us)" positive relative to this negative electron shell.
If we use Einsteins Mass Energy equivalence formula E=mc^2 then the mass equivalent of that shell of photons will be substantial. So rather than some intangible veil of light and electrons on the outer fringes of our universe we actually would have shells of substantial mass equivalence. So my model of the universe is like an onion, shells within shells. As the early photons were from nuclear rather than electronic transitions they will mostly be in the high energy gamma range, so there mass equivalence will be proportionally large.

Next we know gravity affects light eg galactic lens effect, Einsteins occlusion predictions. Almost as if photons did have mass.

Now consider my onion universe expanding , slowing as it reaches its maximum radius, stops, then starts the next contraction process. The first to be effected almost instantly will be the lightest particles while the main matter which has huge inertia and momentum lags and continues outward while the lighter outer shells begin to contract inward. Now add to this the potential of a huge hypothetical negative electron shell rapidly contracting inward toward our "positive" rocky central "matter universe', three sets of forces accelerating our current outward expansion.
1. Outward movement continues because of inertia and Momentum
2. Electric Attraction force between negative electron sphere and positive "matter universe"
3. Gravitational attraction force between "matter universe" and mass equivalent photon shell

All this to me, adds up to indicating, that currently our universe is actually in the early stages of the collapse phase. If we were still in the expansion phase then we would observe a decelerating expansion, but as we observe an accelerating expansion then the collapsing shells must currently be close and approaching. They will pass through us increasing the inward gravitational and eventually pull us back to an object around 30000 km across and do it all again.

Anyway that's my 2 cents worth.
Cheers

A couple things here Tipan, first like the copter and have a picture of a cool one to show you.

But where did you get this from?

"Everything in this universe rotates including the universe itself."

There was some recent observational evidence, but it could be wrong. I am actually working with some people at Sloan and will ask them and an astrophysicist I know at UCLA.

Right now the universe is expanding faster then light.

"All this to me, adds up to indicating, that currently our universe is actually in the early stages of the collapse phase"

Not from recent cosmological observations.


The Universe Will End in Ice, Probably

"
In cosmology, the end of the universe is as inevitable and inescapable as the laws of nature that predicted its birth. The observation that the expansion of the universe is accelerating came as a surprise even to the researchers who discovered it. Now, that discovery has earned the Nobel Prize in physics for 2011.

The cosmologists' vision of the ultimate end of the universe is by fire or ice, very much like the scenario portrayed in Robert Frost's poem "Fire and Ice":

The Universe Will End in Ice, Probably | Santhosh Mathew, PhD

The End of Everything

The End of Everything

 

[shawn001]

Well, there you go, more proof that consciousness grows the brain, and not the other way around. We also have scientific documentation showing long term meditators having thicker cerebral cortexes than non-meditators.

Zazen (meditation) has clearly demonstrated that with the mind’s eye centered in the hara the proliferation of random ideas is diminished and the attainment of one-pointedness accelerated, since a plethora of blood from the head is drawn down to the abdomen, “cooling” the brain and soothing the autonomic nervous system. This in turn leads to a greater degree of mental and emotional stability. One who functions from his hara, therefore, is not easily disturbed. He is, moreover, able to act quickly and decisively in an emergency owing to the fact that his mind, anchored in his hara, does not waver.


With the mind in the hara, narrow and egocentric thinking is superseded by a broadness of outlook and a magnanimity of spirit. This is because thinking from the vital hara center, being free of mediation by the limited discursive intellect, is spontaneous and all embracing. Perception from the hara tends toward integration and unity rather than division and fragmentation. In short, it is thinking which sees things steadily and whole.

The Hara: Seat of Enlightenment

Yet you don't get grow in the navel and Hara as you do in the brain and meditation and neuroplasticity.

"Zazen (meditation) has clearly demonstrated that with the mind’s eye centered in the hara the proliferation of random ideas is diminished and the attainment of one-pointedness accelerated, since a plethora of blood from the head is drawn down to the abdomen, “cooling” the brain and soothing the autonomic nervous system. "

Bull dinky, I have a chronic health issue of the digestive system and know the enteric nervous system , cns and autonomic nervous system in depth and what you posting is not accurate at all. Nice grovy thoughts btut not accurate in the slightest. In fact it reminds me of the from the heart as emoptions, until they released it was am muscles and pump and had nothing to do with emotions.

I do however keep pointing out the second brain.

You might want to read this from the Dr that discovered it.

The Second Brain : The Scientific Basis of Gut Instinct and a Groundbreaking New Understanding of Nervous Disorders of the Stomach and Intestines

"
Dr. Michael D. Gershon's groundbreaking work clearly demonstrates that the human gut actually has a brain of its own. This remarkable scientific breakthrough offers fascinating proof that "gut instinct" is biological, a function of the second brain.

An alarming number of people suffer from heartburn, nausea, abdominal pain, cramps, diarrhea, constipation, or related problems. Often thought to be caused by a "weakness" of the mind, these conditions may actually be a reflection of a disorder in the second brain. The second brain, located in the bowel, normally works smoothly with the brain in the head, enabling the head-brain to concentrate on the finer pursuits of life while the gut-brain attends to the messy business of digestion. A breakdown in communication between the two brains can lead to stomach and intestinal trouble, causing sufferers great abdominal grief andtoo oftenlabeling them as neurotic complainers.

Dr. Gershon's research into the second brain provides understanding for those who suffer from gut-related ailments and offers new insight into the origin, extent, and management.

The Second Brain is the culmination of thirty years of research. It is an extraordinary contribution to the understanding of gastrointestinal illnesses, as well as a fascinating glimpse into hoe our gut really works."

The Second Brain : The Scientific Basis of Gut Instinct and a Groundbreaking New Understanding of Nervous Disorders of the Stomach and Intestines: Michael Gershon: 9780060182526: Amazon.com: Books

The Other Brain Also Deals With Many Woes

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/health/23gut.html?pagewanted=all/&_r=0


A brain in the head, and one in the gut

"
Two brains are better than one. At least that is the rationale for the close - sometimes too close - relationship between the human body's two brains, the one at the top of the spinal cord and the hidden but powerful brain in the gut known as the enteric nervous system.

For Dr. Michael Gershon, the author of "The Second Brain" and the chairman of the department of anatomy and cell biology at Columbia University, the connection between the two can be unpleasantly clear.

"Every time I call the National Institutes of Health to check on a grant proposal," Gershon said, "I become painfully aware of the influence the brain has on the gut."

In fact, anyone who has ever felt butterflies in the stomach before giving a speech, a gut feeling that flies in the face of fact or a bout of intestinal urgency the night before an examination has experienced the actions of the dual nervous systems.

The connection between the brains lies at the heart of many woes, physical and psychiatric. Ailments like anxiety, depression, irritable bowel syndrome, ulcers and Parkinson's disease manifest symptoms at the brain and the gut level."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/health/24iht-snbrain.html?pagewanted=all

 

[godnotgod]

"Zazen (meditation) has clearly demonstrated that with the mind’s eye centered in the hara the proliferation of random ideas is diminished and the attainment of one-pointedness accelerated, since a plethora of blood from the head is drawn down to the abdomen, “cooling” the brain and soothing the autonomic nervous system. "

Bull dinky, I have a chronic health issue of the digestive system and know the enteric nervous system , cns and autonomic nervous system in depth and what you posting is not accurate at all. Nice grovy thoughts btut not accurate in the slightest. In fact it reminds me of the from the heart as emoptions, until they released it was am muscles and pump and had nothing to do with emotions.

Actually, I have experienced deep love in the heart and quite a bit of conscious activity in the hara, but it is all from tapping into Higher Consciousness energy. This kind of love is not of human origin, but of divine origin, and is much more powerful and blissful, so powerful, in fact, that (and believe me, I cannot explain it) I can actually feel it moving my muscle tissues as if it were a physical force.

I can make a suggestion for you, however. Try chanting or yoga to address your ailment. No guarantees, but you may be pleasantly surprised at the bodily changes that may occur. In fact, my neighbor was just telling me the other eve about his sister, who had all sorts of health issues. She began yogic practice, and has cured herself of everything. The doctors can't understand how she did it.

After just one week of yoga warm ups and basic positions, I felt like I was walking an inch above the ground.

I have chased many a bodily pain away with chanting. If you have depression issues, 1/2 hour of chanting will bring you right around.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Right now the universe is expanding faster then light.

I didn't know that. I thought light-speed was the theoretical limit according to Einstein?

 

[Ouroboros]

I didn't know that. I thought light-speed was the theoretical limit according to Einstein?

It's not expanding faster than the speed of light.

It was though at a short moment at the big bang. The universe expanded to 70% of its current size within a fraction of a second.

An important thing to know is that this expansion of space is not the same as movement of matter or energy. It's an expansion of the very space itself. That's why it wasn't a "bang" at all, since a bang is particles moving rapidly within space.

--edit

Oops. Perhaps I'm wrong about the speed of expansion. I'm not sure how to read the article here, but maybe it is expanding faster than light.

Speed of Universe's Expansion Measured Better Than Ever | Hubble Constant | Spitzer

 

[shawn001]

I didn't know that. I thought light-speed was the theoretical limit according to Einstein?

Matter can't go faster but space can expand faster and that is what they have found out.

 

[shawn001]

The matter in the universe is being drag along with the expanding universe. Hence, it doesn't break the laws of physics.



How Fast is the Universe Expanding?

"Our cosmos expands at about the rate at which space is expanding, and the speed at which objects expand away from us depends upon their distance. If you go far enough out, there is a distance at which objects are speeding away from us faster than the speed of light. "

How Fast is the Universe Expanding?

 

[Thief]

I didn't know that. I thought light-speed was the theoretical limit according to Einstein?

Been thinking on that same idea these past couple of days...

Haven't found that notion as quoted to him.
I suspect a misdirection as he used the speed of light as a 'constant'.
His equation doesn't work well without it's constant.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I suspect a misdirection as he used the speed of light as a 'constant'.

Yes, the "c" in E = mc2, which I guess means energy being proportional to mass?

 

[Thief]

Yes, the "c" in E = mc2, which I guess means energy being proportional to mass?

That's it.
But I've not seen Albert quoted as the speed of light is a barrier.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

But I've not seen Albert quoted as the speed of light is a barrier.

I'm not sure, I thought he had it as a theoretical limit.

 

[Thief]

I thought he was proposing an equation for which all things were predictable.
I've heard he wasn't always sure.

 

[Tiapan]

A couple things here Tipan, first like the copter and have a picture of a cool one to show you.

But where did you get this from?

"Everything in this universe rotates including the universe itself."

There was some recent observational evidence, but it could be wrong. I am actually working with some people at Sloan and will ask them and an astrophysicist I know at UCLA.

Right now the universe is expanding faster then light.

"All this to me, adds up to indicating, that currently our universe is actually in the early stages of the collapse phase"

Not from recent cosmological observations.


The Universe Will End in Ice, Probably

"
In cosmology, the end of the universe is as inevitable and inescapable as the laws of nature that predicted its birth. The observation that the expansion of the universe is accelerating came as a surprise even to the researchers who discovered it. Now, that discovery has earned the Nobel Prize in physics for 2011.

The cosmologists' vision of the ultimate end of the universe is by fire or ice, very much like the scenario portrayed in Robert Frost's poem "Fire and Ice":

The Universe Will End in Ice, Probably | Santhosh Mathew, PhD

The End of Everything

The End of Everything

Yes I am aware of the current thinking, however I must question it, when it appears to violate key axioms of physics.

 

[Thief]

Yes I am aware of the current thinking, however I must question it, when it appears to violate key axioms of physics.

I have been posting for years.....
The rotation of the universe IS the proof of God.

The laws of motion would have you believe....
All things move in a straight line.

But that is not what we see when we look up.

If the big bang had been an expansion holding the law....
Then the expansion would have been one shell of energy increasing in diameter
and hollow on the inside.

For the rotation to be there....it would need be there BEFORE the onset of expansion.

 

[godnotgod]

For the rotation to be there....it would need be there BEFORE the onset of expansion.

How so if there is no time?

 

[godnotgod]

How the universe comes out of Intelligent Nothingness that is The Unified Field:

Professor Hagelin tells us that The Unified Field, which is Pure Consciousness, created the Big Bang. This is consistent with Quantum Theory, which tells us that the 'material' world, is not actually material.

 

[Thief]

How so if there is no time?

Presence and movement are real enough.

You don't need a man-made measuring system to put one item before the other.

and I wish you would crank up the depth of your discussion.

It's not really a game of who, who, who.......what, what, what....

 

[godnotgod]

Presence and movement are real enough.

You don't need a man-made measuring system to put one item before the other.

and I wish you would crank up the depth of your discussion.

It's not really a game of who, who, who.......what, what, what....

Hey, I'm not the one assigning a WHO to the Big Bang; YOU are! So what are you talking about?

Check out the video just before your post by John Hagelin to see the discussion cranked up way beyond your religious dogma and to see what I am really saying.

Use your head, Thief: think. For something to be before or after, you are automatically in the realm of TIME. There is no getting around this. So while you deny TIME on the one hand, you then present an argument that necessitates it. Your logic is in contradiction to itself, but you ignore that and continue to use it in order to prop up your belief system. The short of your premise is that you have the tail wagging the dog, and you think that's cool, but it's just illogical.

 

[Thief]

Hey, I'm not the one assigning a WHO to the Big Bang; YOU are! So what are you talking about?

Check out the video just before your post by John Hagelin to see the discussion cranked up way beyond your religious dogma and to see what I am really saying.

Use your head, Thief: think. For something to be before or after, you are automatically in the realm of TIME. There is no getting around this. So while you deny TIME on the one hand, you then present an argument that necessitates it. Your logic is in contradiction to itself, but you ignore that and continue to use it in order to prop up your belief system. The short of your premise is that you have the tail wagging the dog, and you think that's cool, but it's just illogical.

Time is not a force or substance.....think about it.

Movement is real enough.
One item follows Another.