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Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

shawn001

shawn001

Well-Known Member
godnotgod said:
LOL, consciousness is non-material reality not subject to the antics of the material universe. On the contrary, the material universe is completely subject to consciousness, and yet, consciousness does not interfere or dominate the material universe, but is what is behind it in every way, just as the ocean is behind the wave in every way. IOW, all forms in the universe are illusory; only the consciousness that manifests them is real.

Yes, consciousness was present at the time of the BB. It is incorrect to say it was present 'before', as consciousness exists outside of time and space. The BB is an ongoing event in consciousness. Consciousness has no origin. It is Unborn. It is indestructible.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned in a previous post.

"Its a figure of speech and nothing else"

You posted this Godnotgod

"Nope. There is nothing in dominion over nature."

Then post

"Yes, consciousness was present at the time of the BB. It is incorrect to say it was present 'before', as consciousness exists outside of time and space"

That would break the natural laws and becomes supernatural just as I thought you were implying.
 
shawn001

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Willamena said:
Black and white. :D
Click to expand...

ying-yang-44689.jpg
 
godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
shawn001 said:
As I mentioned in a previous post.

"Its a figure of speech and nothing else"

You posted this Godnotgod

"Nope. There is nothing in dominion over nature."

Then post

"Yes, consciousness was present at the time of the BB. It is incorrect to say it was present 'before', as consciousness exists outside of time and space"

That would break the natural laws and becomes supernatural just as I thought you were implying.
Click to expand...

No. There are not two realities, one over the other. There is but one, as exemplified in the following statement by Vivekenanda:

'The Universe is [none other than] The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

(bracketed insertion mine)
 
godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
shawn001 said:
I'll go with Einstein on this one instead of philosophy. Which just goes "God is the absolute" and just is, end of story.
Click to expand...

Tao is not philosophy. We don't know of any God that can be an absolute, but we do have a visible universe we are completely immersed in that can be directly experienced any time we wish, or rather, which we are experiencing all the time, whether we are conscious of it or not. This direct experience of the universe is non-philosophical in nature. Because there is no other to which the Universe can be compared, it is The Absolute. But we do not see the Universe as The Absolute because we see it through the conceptual filters of Time, Space, and Causation:

"....that the Universe is the Absolute seen through the screen of time, space and causation allows us to get some interesting information, albeit in negative terms, about what he calls the Absolute.

Since it is not in time, it cannot be changing. Change takes place only in time.

And since it is not in space, it must be undivided, because dividedness and separation occur only in space.

And since it is therefore one and undivided, it must also be infinite, since there is no "other" to limit it.

Now "changeless," "infinite," and "undivided" are negative statements, but they will suffice. We can trace the physics of our Universe from these three negative statements.

If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

http://quanta-gaia.org/dobson/EquationsOfMaya.html
 
shawn001

shawn001

Well-Known Member
godnotgod said:
Tao is not philosophy. We don't know of any God that can be an absolute, but we do have a visible universe we are completely immersed in that can be directly experienced any time we wish, or rather, which we are experiencing all the time, whether we are conscious of it or not. This direct experience of the universe is non-philosophical in nature. Because there is no other to which the Universe can be compared, it is The Absolute. But we do not see the Universe as The Absolute because we see it through the conceptual filters of Time, Space, and Causation:

"....that the Universe is the Absolute seen through the screen of time, space and causation allows us to get some interesting information, albeit in negative terms, about what he calls the Absolute.

Since it is not in time, it cannot be changing. Change takes place only in time.

And since it is not in space, it must be undivided, because dividedness and separation occur only in space.

And since it is therefore one and undivided, it must also be infinite, since there is no "other" to limit it.

Now "changeless," "infinite," and "undivided" are negative statements, but they will suffice. We can trace the physics of our Universe from these three negative statements.

If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

http://quanta-gaia.org/dobson/EquationsOfMaya.html
Click to expand...

"The Tao is the understanding or intuitive knowing of "life" or present awareness that of which can not be grasped full heartedly as just a concept but known nonetheless"

I can't really know it, but I know it nonetheless.

Tao - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






I'll stick with "The Absolute vodka as seen through the glass." and the actual science.
 
shawn001

shawn001

Well-Known Member
godnotgod said:
That's it exactly! The Universe is, at its most essential nature, a cosmic song and dance.

'Be glad, oh be glad, for the song has no ending'
Incredible String Band
Click to expand...

I had that kind of as a pun on your song and dance on the questions and on the cosmic song and dance.


 
godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
YmirGF said:
Wow. Learn something new everyday from you, GnG. Last I read and understood, Taoism is very much a philosophy.
Click to expand...

Yes, but the eternal Tao itself is not, which is what I was referring to. Lao tze's 'Tao te Ching' is also not a philosophy. Philosophy is an intellectual process. The Tao itself and its practice and realization are non-intellectual, just as Zen is not. IOW, these are mystical practices, direct, wordless experiences with nature.
 
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