Does the rapture doctrine "fly" with Biblical teachings and other LDS scriptures ???

[FFH]

I would like to include all faiths who believe in the literal teachings of the Bible.....

Please mods don't move this to LDS, because I want to include all Bible believing faiths in this debate.

With that said I would like to start this debate by saying that there is an actual "first ressurection/rapture" of the faithful members of Jesus Christ's church, which includes those who have repented of their sins and are ready at his coming, (see the parable of the Ten Virgins).

I have posting the Joseph Smith's inspired version of Matthew 24, in which the entire chapter has been included as part of the LDS church's universally accepted scripture, the Pearl of Great Price...

So that we are all on the same page I've included both the King James (which is accepted by the LDS church as long as it is translated correctly) and the Joseph Smith inspired version of the same chapter.

Matthew 24
King James version

Joseph Smith—Matthew (JS-M)
Joseph Smith's inspired version of Matthew 24, from the Pearl of Great Price, which is a universally accepted LDS compilation of Joseph Smith's various inspired works) This particular inspired work starts with Matthew 23: 39 (which is the last verse of Matthew 23 in the King James), and ends with Matthew 24 verse 51.

The verse which keeps coming to mind strongly is the verse which speaks of or suggests a "first resurrection/rapture," is:

Matthew 24: 27-28
King James version

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Joseph Smith—Matthew (Joseph Smith inspired version of Matthew 24)
(Beginning with the same scripture as the King James)

The purple bold portions do not appear in the King James.

26 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

27 And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth.

The underscored portion suggests a gathering in the air...

Remember the Lord started this verse in Joseph Smith-Matthew (Joseph Smith's inspired version of Matthew) by saying "I show unto you a parable," which means he's going to use an abstract example to describe an actual event.

 

[FFH]

Luke 17 corresponds directly with Matthew 24

Luke 17:24-37
King James version

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.



Joseph Smith inspired version of Luke 17: 24-37

The portions in bold purple do not appear in the King James

24 For as the light of the morning, that shineth out of the one part under heaven, and lighteneth to the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of Man be in his day.

25 But first he must suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe; so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 In that day, the disciple who shall be on the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away; and he who is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life, shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life, shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

35 Two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left.

35 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord, shall they be taken.

36 And he said unto them,Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered, thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.

37 This he spake, signifying the gathering of his saints; and of angels descending and gathering the remainder unto them; the one from the bed, the other from the grinding, and the other from the field, whithersoever he listeth.

38 For verily there shall be new heavens, and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

39 And there shall be no unclean thing; for the earth becoming old, even as as garment, having waxed in corruption, wherefore it vanisheth away, and the footstool remaineth sanctified, cleansed from all sin.

 

[Comprehend]

no. it doesn't.

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

if you don't mind, i have heard "the rapture" thing several times. i understand that is came from a book of fiction... then why dose it need to deal with religion? and what is it? i have head and read differnt things about it, and it seems to grow each time i hear it of what it is...

 

[*Paul*]

I just don't see how the rapture can be denied by anyone who takes the bible literally it is so clear to me, the only question open to debate should be when it will occur in relation to the great tribulation.

 

[Comprehend]

I just don't see how the rapture can be denied by anyone who takes the bible literally it is so clear to me, the only question open to debate should be when it will occur in relation to the great tribulation.

if this is the case. why do christians like Lunamoth say that belief in the rapture is not a majority view in Christianity?

what scripture would you say support the idea of the rapture?

 

[FFH]

the only question open to debate should be when it will occur in relation to the great tribulation.

I agree

 

[*Paul*]

if this is the case. why do christians like Lunamoth say that belief in the rapture is not a majority view in Christianity?

what scripture would you say support the idea of the rapture?

The rapture is simply the catching up of living believers with the ressurected the saints which Christ comes for.

1Thes 4v16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thes 4v17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The phrase "caught up" is where the word rapture comes from and is simply the teaching that living Christians will one day be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, immediatly after the ressurection of the saints. They that are alive at His coming. Our bodies shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye to a body like Jesus' ressurection body (otherwise we would not survive the rapture, and flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God).

I suppose the people like lunamoth are thinking of the left behind series version of the rapture. Which is what the term has become synonimous with.

 

[Comprehend]

The rapture is simply the catching up of living believers with the ressurected the saints which Christ comes for.

1Thes 4v16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thes 4v17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The phrase "caught up" is where the word rapture comes from and is simply the teaching that living Christians will one day be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, immediatly after the ressurection of the saints. They that are alive at His coming. Our bodies shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye to a body like Jesus' ressurection body (otherwise we would not survive the rapture, and flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God).

I suppose the people like lunamoth are thinking of the left behind series version of the rapture. Which is what the term has become synonimous with.

ok. in that case, why would anyone call it the rapture (a name not in the bible) when the bible clearly calls it the resurrection?

 

[*Paul*]

ok. in that case, why would anyone call it the rapture (a name not in the bible) when the bible clearly calls it the resurrection?

It is only a ressurection in regard to the dead people, but those that are alive at His coming are not ressurected but caught up. I think the word is a transliteration of the latin scriptures for the word caught up in thessalonians. Also the greek is harpazo,
which is like being harpooned.

Strongs:

1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly 3) to snatch out or away

 

[Comprehend]

It is only a ressurection in regard to the dead people, but those that are alive at His coming are not ressurected but caught up. I think the word is a transliteration of the latin scriptures for the word caught up in thessalonians. Also the greek is harpazo,
which is like being harpooned.

Strongs:

1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly 3) to snatch out or away

Well, I am beginning to think that our views of what is going to happen isn't all that different after all. I thought that most people believed the left behind scenario.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

ok. in that case, why would anyone call it the rapture (a name not in the bible) when the bible clearly calls it the resurrection?

A rose by any other name will smell just as sweet.

 

[SoyLeche]

A rose by any other name will smell just as sweet.

Not if it were called a stink blossom

 

[*Paul*]

Well, I am beginning to think that our views of what is going to happen isn't all that different after all. I thought that most people believed the left behind scenario.

As i said the only question that should truly be up for debate is when this will occur, the left behinders (pre tribulational rapture) believe the rapture just as I have defined it, but believe it is a removal of the church before Gods wrath is poured out on the earth during Daniels 70th week or the great tribulation (week of years by the way) as described in revelation and by Jesus and bits here and there in the prophets. It is a ressurection only of believers (the dead IN CHRIST shall rise) and we (Christians) which are alive and remain shall be caught up (raptured) with them. This is also the appearing of Christ not to be confused with the second coming.
AT the rapture we shall be changed physically and our mortal bodies shall be swallowed up by our ressurection bodies corruption shall put on incorruption, mortality shall put on immortality, We shall be like Him 1 John somewhere.
The problem (one of) with the left behind books is that they go way beyond what is written in scripture and base everything one some presumptious scenarios, they make a merchandise out of our blessed hope (titus) and potentially mislead people on the identity of the antichrist. I would not read that series for biblical truth about the rapture.

However I am a firm believer in the premillenial second coming of Jesus Christ and the pretribulational rapture of the saints. I can't describe to you how precious a doctrine it is to me and one I have tested against scripture as I have with everything i believe to the best of my ability.

 

[Comprehend]

As i said the only question that should truly be up for debate is when this will occur, the left behinders (pre tribulational rapture) believe the rapture just as I have defined it, but believe it is a removal of the church before Gods wrath is poured out on the earth during Daniels 70th week or the great tribulation (week of years by the way) as described in revelation and by Jesus and bits here and there in the prophets. It is a ressurection only of believers (the dead IN CHRIST shall rise) and we (Christians) which are alive and remain shall be caught up (raptured) with them. This is also the appearing of Christ not to be confused with the second coming.
AT the rapture we shall be changed physically and our mortal bodies shall be swallowed up by our ressurection bodies corruption shall put on incorruption, mortality shall put on immortality, We shall be like Him 1 John somewhere.
The problem (one of) with the left behind books is that they go way beyond what is written in scripture and base everything one some presumptious scenarios, they make a merchandise out of our blessed hope (titus) and potentially mislead people on the identity of the antichrist. I would not read that series for biblical truth about the rapture.

However I am a firm believer in the premillenial second coming of Jesus Christ and the pretribulational rapture of the saints. I can't describe to you how precious a doctrine it is to me and one I have tested against scripture as I have with everything i believe to the best of my ability.

ok. There is our disagreement. LDS (besides FFH for some reason) believe that the "church" will not be removed anywhere when Christ comes. It appears that the rapture doctrine you hold says that the church will be taken from off the earth.

We believe that when we are "caught up" at the resurrection is the same event as the Second Coming. So it looks like we do have some substantial doctrinal differences.

What scripture(s) would you say teach that the "church" will be removed from the earth for a period of time while the worst destruction takes place?

 

[*Paul*]

What scripture(s) would you say teach that the "church" will be removed from the earth for a period of time while the worst destruction takes place?

The removal is only for Seven years any way scriptures:

Gods nature:
Gen 18v25: That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

He spares the righteouss:
Gen 19v16: And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city

And again here:
Gen 6v8: But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6v12: And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
Gen 6v13: And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Gen 6v14: Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

We are His bride and while all the chaos down on earth is described in revelation there is a marriage supper going on in heaven between the Lamb and His bride. Rev 19.

I can go into more depth tomorrow, but these verses say a lot to me when i think on them, if Gods punishment is going to be poured out on the earth as He says then he will not pour it out on those who are His and whose punishment Jesus has already taken in their place on the cross.

From thessalonians it is clear that living believers shall be caught up to meet Jesus in the air, if this is at the second coming then the church will have to go through Gods wrath being poured out on the earth and some insufferable times, most will have been slaughtered by the antichrist and His coming will not be unexpected but blatantly obvious and preceeded by signs in the heavens and the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens. Also it would mean that we would be caught up to be immediatly come straight back down to destroy antichrist and enter the millenial kingdom on paradise earth. No heavenly marriage supper of the Lamb & no bema judgement.

 

[Comprehend]

The removal is only for Seven, years any way scriptures:

Gods nature:
Gen 18v25: That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

He spares the righteouss:
Gen 19v16: And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city

And again here:
Gen 6v8: But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6v12: And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
Gen 6v13: And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Gen 6v14: Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Others have been removed before:
Gen 5v24: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Heb 11v5: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
2Kgs 2v1: And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2Kgs 2v11: And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

We will return from heaven with Christ at His second coming so must have got up there somehow:

I understand that God spares the righteous but I don't see how any of those scriptures talk about the church being taken off the earth at the last days, nor anything about 7 years???

 

[*Paul*]

sorry comprehend i had not finished my post, and accidently pressed enter. You don't understand where i get 7 years from? I'll look at what you post tommorow and try to go into more depth but this could get quite long.

 

[Comprehend]

sorry comprehend i had not finished my post, and accidently pressed enter. You don't understand where i get 7 years from? I'll look at what you post tommorow and try to go into more depth but this could get quite long.

no worries.

 

[*Paul*]

Dan 9v24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

These are not weekly weeks but weeks of years of seventy sevens. Each week = 7 years that is what the term week means here. The hebrew word is Heptad and can mean an earthly week or a period of seven years.

Dan 9v25: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The command to rebuild Jerusalam (not the temple but Jeruslem) is here:
Neh 2v1-8: And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.
Wherefore the king said unto me, Why is thy countenance sad, seeing thou art not sick? this is nothing else but sorrow of heart. Then I was very sore afraid,
And said unto the king, Let the king live for ever: why should not my countenance be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' sepulchres, lieth waste, and the gates thereof are consumed with fire?
Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven.
And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.
And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time.
Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah;
And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.

Dan 9v26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The threescore and two weeks are after the first seven weeks so should be added together to equal 69 weeks when Messiah comes. (another tpoic but if HE didn't come then then HE never came and if you are still looking for Him you missed Him)

The twentieth year of Artaxerxes Longimanus is 445bc. If we count 69 weeks of years (483 years in a 360 day hebrew calender cycle) or 69 x 7 x 360 = 173,880 days till the messiah should come. This takes you to palm Sunday the day Jesus was publicly presented as Messiah by riding in to Jerusalem as foretold Messiah would in Zecheriah. (Remember 1 bc to 1 ad is only 1 year) Then Messiah is killed but not for Himself (for the sins of the world) leaving 7 years outstanding.

more about these extant 7 years to folloe