Does the Bible Permit Women to Lead, Teach, Preach or Speak?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

to "rule over" and to disrespect are 2 different things.

Perhaps songbird has a misconception?

If you respect a person's opinion and allow them to be free, how are you "ruling over" them?

If you "rule over" a person by controlling their actions and thereby denying their freedom, how are you respecting them?

Scripture also says that when a man marries a woman, he begins a possession

Still- not a means for disrespect

I disagree. Treating a person as property is fundamental disrespect. I would be hard-pressed to come up with a disrespect that's greater.

 

[OnPower]

no

disrespect is to foil her

to care for her is not

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

no

disrespect is to foil her

to care for her is not

What does that even mean?

 

[OnPower]

What does that even mean?

scripture explains that a man is to care for his family

if he beat her or disrespect her, the man is guilty (under the law)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

scripture explains that a man is to care for his family

if he beat her or disrespect her, the man is guilty (under the law)

You don't need to own a person as property to care for them. And owning another person as property disrespects that person whether you beat them or not.

 

[not nom]

I KNEW you would find this topic. heh.

when you said paul teaches the law, that was still just paul saying that. so where is that law he speaks of?

if christ is the ruler of men, and men the ruler of women, why not consider christ, who made no difference *at all* between men and women? when someone says "2 + 2 = 4", do you need to check their gender first? jesus didn't, jesus seemed to gleefully not care about any of that. so where does all this mediocrity come from? it's just the same old, same old.



from the second post in this thread, still unanswered, which is rather telling I guess:

what about the professing christian men who are quite clearly full of it? did maleism cause this? and what do you suggest to do about it -- that is, if you're even aware of the problem?

 

[not nom]

You don't need to own a person as property to care for them.

if you own someone, you care for your possession, not for someone else.

"here's a car, now wash it regularly" -- that is about the depth and extent of this "respect".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

if you own someone, you care for your possession, not for someone else.

"here's a car, now wash it regularly" -- that is about the depth and extent of this "respect".

Right - and if you want to go to the mall but your car has other ideas, you get out the booster cable, jump start it, and go to the mall, because the decision about what you do with the car belongs to you, not to the car.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

You don't need to own a person as property to care for them. And owning another person as property disrespects that person whether you beat them or not.

Because people are not objects or things to be owned, they are living beings with their own will and identity. To own a human being as property is to dehumanize that person and turn into just another object to be used

 

[sojourner]

Isaiah 4:1: And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.


seven women will be begging one man, bringing her own food, clothes, etc
only let them be married to this man to take away the reproach placed on them by Eve


Praise the Lord

That's real easy for a male to say. You might change your tune if your symbol were pink...:sleep:

The misogyny of ancient and primitive cultures is not venerable -- even if it is documented in scriptural texts.

[edit] Especially if it is documented in scriptural texts.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I would like the input of christian women in this thread. And I would like to ask is this is what they want their daughters and even their sons to live by. That women as less than human, that they need to be controlled, that they have no identity of their own. Is this what you really want?

Didn't Jesus come to liberate the oppressed? Please tell which group of people have been more oppressed than women?

 

[Rakhel]

that was a good try


if we read the account, God could not find anyone else to take the role of authority

They were all busy worshipping false gods

Do you need me to post this for you ?

:run:

"Nice Try?"
:biglaugh:
You are really lost, aren't you?

 

[idea]

I would like the input of christian women in this thread. And I would like to ask is this is what they want their daughters and even their sons to live by.

I am a Christian mother, I have two daughters.

(New Testament | Matthew 23:11 - 12)
11 But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

there's the world's way of doing things (rat race, your worth is your paycheck, fighting to get to the top sort of thing) and then there is Christ's way of doing things - the last shall be first, lose yourself to find yourself, etc. etc.

Christians are not the only ones who have found peace in a different lifestyle:

The sage wears rough clothing and holds the jewel in her heart.
The more she does for others, the more she has.
The more she gives to others, the greater her abundance.
The sage knows herself, but makes no show,
Has self-respect, but is not arrogant.
The sage works without recognition.
She achieves what has to be done without dwelling on it.

She lets go of that,
and chooses this.

Dare to not be ahead of others.
Accept being unimportant.
Do not be concerned with loss or gain.
Why is the sea king of a hundred streams?
(Why does all water flow to the oceans?)
Because it lies below them all.

Empty yourself of everything.
Empty and be full..
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful.
Cut doors and window for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Usefulness (comes) from what is not there.

She who knows that enough is enough will always have enough.
She who grasps, loses.

The sage.. though there are beautiful things to be seen,
remains unattached and calm.
[FONT=&quot]If you try to hold it, you will lose it - [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Tao Te Ching by Lao Tsu


let go of ego -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeaWC6y0jFc&feature=related
our ego creates a false reality...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for my son,
I actually think that women have a harder time stepping down, and not being a control freak, then men do... like when you call home, most people talk to their mom, not their dad.... moms usually organize all the holiday events, usually control most of the family affairs. I think everyone - men and women - need to learn the joys of being "with" others rather than being "in front of" them... but it seems to especially be an issue for women, to learn how to let go, stop trying to control everyone, and just relax and be with people.
[/FONT]

 

[Rakhel]

at the head of man is Christ
at the head of a woman
is man


just sayin


I guess you forgot to read the Torah :slap:

Where in the Torah does it state that?
Because..ummm... you know that the word "christ" is not written anywhere within the books of Torah.


Nice try though.

 

[Rakhel]

Deborah deserves some credit, but she wasn't married.

Actually she was married to Baruch

 

[Rakhel]

I see that you have all forgotten a pertinent scripture


Genesis 3:16: Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.



"rule over thee"

Just Sayin

KJV? Seriously?

And WTH does that have to do with woman not leading?

 

[Rakhel]

then stay rebellious



Perhaps you need a forum on knitting?

Oh he did not!!!

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I am a Christian mother, I have two daughters.

(New Testament | Matthew 23:11 - 12)
11 But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

there's the world's way of doing things (rat race, your worth is your paycheck, fighting to get to the top sort of thing) and then there is Christ's way of doing things - the last shall be first, lose yourself to find yourself, etc. etc.

Christians are not the only ones who have found peace in a different lifestyle:

The sage wears rough clothing and holds the jewel in her heart.
The more she does for others, the more she has.
The more she gives to others, the greater her abundance.
The sage knows herself, but makes no show,
Has self-respect, but is not arrogant.
The sage works without recognition.
She achieves what has to be done without dwelling on it.

She lets go of that,
and chooses this.

Dare to not be ahead of others.
Accept being unimportant.
Do not be concerned with loss or gain.
Why is the sea king of a hundred streams?
(Why does all water flow to the oceans?)
Because it lies below them all.

Empty yourself of everything.
Empty and be full..
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful.
Cut doors and window for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Usefulness (comes) from what is not there.

She who knows that enough is enough will always have enough.
She who grasps, loses.

The sage.. though there are beautiful things to be seen,
remains unattached and calm.
[FONT=&quot]If you try to hold it, you will lose it - [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Tao Te Ching by Lao Tsu[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]let go of ego - [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][youtube]aeaWC6y0jFc[/youtube]
How to Dissolve the Egoic Self by Using Non-Identification - Eckhart Tolle - Part 1 - YouTube[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]our ego creates a false reality...[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As for my son,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I actually think that women have a harder time stepping down, and not being a control freak, then men do... like when you call home, most people talk to their mom, not their dad.... moms usually organize all the holiday events, usually control most of the family affairs. I think everyone - men and women - need to learn the joys of being "with" others rather than being "in front of" them... but it seems to especially be an issue for women, to learn how to let go, stop trying to control everyone, and just relax and be with people.[/FONT]

So to you slavery is freedom. I opt out of that

 

[Rakhel]

I would like the input of christian women in this thread. And I would like to ask is this is what they want their daughters and even their sons to live by. That women as less than human, that they need to be controlled, that they have no identity of their own. Is this what you really want?

Didn't Jesus come to liberate the oppressed? Please tell which group of people have been more oppressed than women?

The problem is not what Jesus said. It is what Paul said that the Church expanded on and made worse.

 

[e.r.m.]

The problem is not what Jesus said. It is what Paul said that the Church expanded on and made worse.

Unfair question since that is not what is bring proposed. Pegg, who is living it, and for whom it's not theoretical or future tense, as you're describing, sure doesn't think she's being treated that way.