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Does the Bible not teach not to add or take away from it?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Katzpur, Dec 31, 2005.

  1. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    for someone to come along and add to the laws of the Torah without basis in Halachah (such as the rabbinical decree of not mixing poultry w/ dairy coming from the biblical law against mixing beef and dairy which is considered connected as a protective measure) or to take away from the laws of the Torah, that person can and is to be considered a false prophet.

    G-d will not suddenly change His mind, these are eternal decrees given to the Nation of Israel.
    That's the traditional jewish view on it from what i can tell.
     
  2. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    First and foremost I must emphasize that this law was/is for the Nation of Israel only. In catholic theology God doesn’t have just one body of law. He has several that we know of—probably more that we don’t. That’s not surprising. Even a nation like the United States has different bodies of law governing different aspects of life in America. There’s international law, federal law, state law, and municipal law.

    We see in the Old Testament many non-Jews who were worshipers of the true God, such as Melchizedek the Jebusite and Jethro the Midianite, who were both priests of God (Ex. 3:1, 18:12), Balaam the Pethorite, who was a prophet of God (Num. 22:18–19), and Naaman the Syrian, who came to worship God and was in no way asked to embrace the Mosaic Law (2 Kgs. 5:15–19).

    So to be fair only those who choose to embrace the Law should follow it. And when you say that can't change his mind I respectfully disagree. God certainly can change his mind, but what he can't do is contradict Himself. Please spare me the search of examples where God was deciding to do something and then changed his mind because of the prayers of his people.

    Peace

    ~Victor
     
  3. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    I will agree that the Torah Mitzvot are for the Jewish people, but the Non-jews, in jewish tradition, have the noahidic laws, 7 in all. But ultimately for a non-jew it's about simply being a good person.
    G-d can change His mind, you are right about that, however He did profess that the Laws of the Torah are an eternal covenant.
    When it comes to Him "changing His mind" it has to do w/ negative decrees which can be changed w/ repentance and a return to G-d. A positive decree, such as the coming of the Messianic redemption, can not be changed tho.
    These are concepts in traditional judaism which can be found in the Rambam's 13 principles of Jewish faith.
     
  4. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Ok. Then I guess it comes down to Judaism seeing Christianity contradicting the Law which is of course a long-winded discussion.

    ~Victor
     
  5. angellous_evangellous

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  6. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    IMPO only if you say that the Torah and Paul can be combined and are not in contradiction. One has to take pecedent over the other IMPO.
    again, to me it's apples and oranges. They are different and that's fine, but don't hand me one and say it's the same as the other.
     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm sorry, I guess I don't. I'm trying to, though. :) I believe that the Book of Mormon is by the same author as the Bible, in that respect.

    Sorry, I guess I'm just not following your reasoning. I believe God revealed Himself to Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, Paul, Joseph Smith, etc. and told them what He wanted them to record.
     
  8. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    Revelation 22:18 says
    "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophesy of THIS BOOK. if any man shall add unto THESE THINGS, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in THIS BOOK. THIS BOOK is the Book of Revelation. The bible is made up of many books,

    1. the Book of Moses which is divided into five parts or chapters
    a. Genesis
    b. Exodus
    c. Leviticus
    d. Numbers
    e. Deuteronomy

    2. The Book of Joshua

    3. The Book of Judges

    4. The Book of Ruth

    5. The Books of Samuel {one and two}

    6. The Books of the Kings {one and two}

    7. The Books of the Chronicles {one and two}

    8. The Book of Nehemiah

    9. The Book of Esther

    10 The Book of Psalms

    11. The Book of Isaiah

    12. The Book of Jeremiah

    13. The Book of Ezekiel {in which I will be quoting} +++++++

    14.The Book of Daniel

    In the New Testement are 4 Gospels.
    Why would 4 Apostles write the same events? Wouldn't one of the Apostle's
    versions be enough? I guess God did not think so because 4 gospels have been written that pretty much tell the same events.

    Perhapps the reason is that some might not include some events as some haven't. That is why critics say that they are inconsistent.
    My defence of the bible is this...
    If four reporters were to interview a famous person for a news report. Each reporter may have questions that are more important to him than to the other reporters. If you were to observe the person as he does his daily business, you may be more impressed with how the person treated others than the work he may be doing. To make this more clear to your understanding. If you were to have followed Jesus the Christ around, observing, you may be more impressed with His teachings than his healings however if you were in need of healing, you may ne more impressed with those. Some Apostles gave more details than others, most likely because they are more detailed about events they regard as important. It may have to do with personality some are more thorough about relating events. The events that all of them included they considere were the most important, essential for our knowledge, our understanding of Jesus the Christ.

    Having 4 Gospels also provides 4 witnesses to events that happened with the Savior, while He was on earth. They testify of the others. In other words when the bible is put on trial, in a manner of speaking, by critics, these 4 Apostles are witnesses to the events. They are giving the SAME account of most events that happened.

    Now, what does this have to do with your question about adding another book to the bible?
    This...
    If another book exists that testifies the Old Testement is true and the New Testement is true than it is "Another Testement of Jesus Christ", another witness to testify the bible is true, that the Old Testement is true and that the New Testement is true and therefore Jesus if the Chirst. Why would we need "Another Testement..."?
    Because people today doubt it's authenticty.

    Here's Ezekiel 37:15-20
    "The word of the Lord cam again unto me saying, Moreover thou son of man, take thee one stick {they used to roll their paper around a stick, they didn't have paper in book form yet} and write upon it for Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions then take another stick and write upon it for Joseph {the brother of Judah, one of the twelve tribes of Israel}, the stick of Ephraim { one of Joseph's sons} and for all the house of Israel, his companions."

    In other words The Lord commanded that Judah and his descendents should keep a record, which they have the bible and the Lord commanded that Joseph and his decendents keep a record, their own record {like a journal}, which they have done, "Another Testement of Jesus Christ".

    Ezekiel says further...
    "And join one to another into one stick and they shall become one in thine hand."

    Perhapps the reason that God has was this
    Deuteronomy 3:7
    "...He shall push the people together to the ends of the earth and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim {descendents of} and they are the thousands of Manasseh {descendents of Joseph's other son}."
    In other words, the tribes of Israel would eventually be scattered upon the earth and seperated from each other. They would not be able to share the record, it's teachings. Therefore until the time came that the earth was flooded with the word of God, they would need their own record that correspoded with the other, that had the same history of God and the same teachings. In addition they would have their own experiences with God that would be added. The history is different but the principles, God's teachings are the same.

    It is the same in any family. You have a family history that each of your brothers and sisters have experienced and as you move away you have your own experiences {like what you would write in a journal to remember} that would be added to that history.

    How we know that somthing is good is by this

    3 John 1.11 {in Judah's record,the bible}
    "Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God...."

    Alma 5:40 {in Joseph's record, another Testement of Jesus Christ}
    "For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God,..."

    Ether 4.12 {another testement of Jesus Christ}
    "And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me {Heavenly Father} for good cometh of none save it be of me {Heavenly Father}. I am the same that leadeth men to do all good. ...
    For behold, I am the Father, I am the light and the life and the truth of the world."

    Moroni 7:12-13 {another testement of Jesus Christ}
    "Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God. Behold that which is of God, inviteth and enticeth to do good continually. Wherefore everything which inviteth and enticeth to do good and to love God and to serve Him is inspired of God."


    whatever causes you to do good abd to love god is of god because good cometh of god
     
  9. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    These sentences should read

    If another book exists that testifies the Old Testement is true and the New Testement is true than it is "Another Testement..." If it testifies that the bible {old and new testement} is true, it is also testifying that Jesus is the Christ. Therefore it is "Another Testement of Jesus Christ". It is another witness to testify the bible is true, that the Old and New Testement is a true account, that Jesus IS the Christ.

    Why would we need "Another Testement of Jesus Christ" ?
    Because people today doubt the bible's authenticity. We need another witness and they testify of the authenticity of each other.

    Whatever causes you to do good AND to love God is of God because good cometh of God.
     
  10. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    If God was talking specifically about Revelations, I still don't think people should be adding or taking away anything from the Bible (or your religious book of choice). If people start taking out what they don't like or adding stuff in, then you might as well just live however you want and not follow any book. Less headache.:tsk:
     
  11. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    People have altered the bible since its creation... as we discovered on the History channel... (or, well, i did, cause i love that show...)
     
  12. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    That was a great show. Knowing even a little about the history of the Bible makes the idea that it is a complete and infallible book a far-fetched idea in my opinion.

    What I found most interesting is that the books were not rejected after seeking the spirit. Rather, they were rejected because they didn't follow the mold of Christianity that the early church leaders wanted to establish. Interesting stuff...
     
  13. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Which is exactly what happened when the Reformers rejected the Deuterocannonical books of the Old Testament over 1000 years after the NT canon was agreed. That's one of the things I find so ironic about those (usually sola scriptura Protestants) who read the warning in Revelations as applying to the whole Bible.

    James
     
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  14. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    I think the title to this thread needs a couple more negatives in it. I can almost understand what it is asking. I think the answer that I would give is "yes".
     
  15. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think he was reinforcing these messages.
    Duet 4:2. Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
    Duet 13:1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

    He had to be referring to the 613 mitzvahs as there was NT wasn't even written when he said this. Kind of makes you wonder why Christians pervert scripture so much to fit their wants/needs/desires.
     
  16. Searcher of Light

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    Paul dealt with this issue as well. During the apostles' time people where teaching and meshing ideas with early Christianity. This created religions such as Ebionitism and various meshings of Christianity with pagan religions.

    In Galatians 1:7-9, Paul clearly states that followers of Christ were to stay away from teachings that were contrary to the gospel. The gospel as he saw it was the message he and the other apostles were teaching. The way the passage reads alludes to the idea that there were other writers and prophets circulating at that time who were teaching "revelations" that they apparently thought were sent to them by God. Paul states that they are not.

    The idea behind this passage and surrounding events tells us that the apostles apparently did not believe anyone was to add to or remove from their teachings. John reiterates this idea in Revelation as we have been discussing. The issue does not concern the Bible as much as it does the teachings of Christ and the apostles. The Bible is just an anthology compiled by well meaning religious men. Being men, they could have left out vital books to flesh out the framework of Judaism and Christianity. They could have included works that have no historical basis as well.

    Adding and removing from this anthology often touches on the idea of what writings are inspired or not. The apostles throughout the anthology state and imply they are the only ones inspired by God, and anyone teaching things different from their teachings are wrong.

    With the following I do not mean to imply anything. It is just a thought that springs to mind considering the nature of faith:

    Religion could very well be the most sinister tool of Satan (evil). Consider the possibility that the Bible of itself (along with other texts such as the Quran and the Book of Mormon) may be a misguided collection used to fuel religions that, although are benevolent, could very well be used to further evil's ends: leading people away from God's complete truth. Consider the Genesis story where the serpent tempts Eve by just slightly altering God's command to not eat of the tree of life. Such a slight altercation caused sin. It is possible that religion, the Bible itself, contains just a slight change in what would be God's will.

    While I do not believe this idea, the possibility it could be true is rather haunting. This especially is true when political power, wealth, free will, and greed are factored into the writing of religious texts. What better power to control people than taking a popular religion and slightly altering its texts in a way that controls the direction of people's thinking?
     
  17. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    and yet they were all told something different:rolleyes:
     
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