Does Prayer "Work"?

[Rise]

As you may have realized from the discussion between @TagliatelliMonster and myself, my argument is that prayer works because it is (can be) equivalent to meditation. When you take away the equivalence, you take away the explanation for the effect. I'd even go so far as stating that prayer that isn't equivalent to meditation is totally ineffective.

To say "prayer works" because it achieves the effect of meditation is to misunderstand what the purpose of prayer is and what is is meant to achieve.

If prayer does not achieve what it is intended to then you can't say it's effective as prayer. Therefore, it doesn't "work".

When you start off the premise of the thread as "prayer works", you're implying that prayer achieves what it is by definition designed to achieve.

Prayer doesn't actually work if all it does is achieve meditation. By definition it has failed to work for what it was intended to - it was intended to work as prayer.

In a Biblical sense, prayer is suppose to cause change to happen. Change in the substance of reality. Change in people. Change in circumstances. Change in spiritual dynamics. Change in just about anything you could imagine you'd want to be changed.

If prayer cannot bring change then you can't by definition say it has worked.
A failed prayer that achieves meditation is still a failed prayer.
Saying it works as meditation is not the same as saying it works as prayer.
In which case, you should stop calling it prayer, because it's not achieving prayer. It's just meditation by other means.

I know from experience that prayer does work at actually bringing about change.
That's why I know there is meaning and significance to prayer's unique definition.

You are not doing a service to reason or advancing the understanding prayer by confusing the issue with meditation.

We see that in studies about intercessory prayer, no effect there.

What studies? Can you provide links to these claimed studies of intercessory prayer?

How does one study intercessory prayer exactly?

Since I know from experience that it does work, I'd like to know how exactly they think they can measure this comprehensively enough to think they are within bounds to declare it doesn't work.

So, if you insist on a difference what is your explanation and what is your evidence?

You did not clarify what you are referring to.
Insist on a difference between what?
An explanation for what?
Evidence for what?

 

[loverofhumanity]

(In an attempt to draw an off-topic discussion away from my OP ...)

This may surprise some but I, an Agnostic, think that prayers do "work". I don't have direct evidence but there are hints in related fields that influenced my evaluation.
There are some restrictions though:
1. Prayers don't have an influence on the world outside yourself. You can't pray for others, only for yourself.
2. It has to be "done right".

There are multiple studies that show that meditation and similar practises have an effect on the human body, especially the immune system.
Prayer, if "done right", induces a similar mental state as meditation.
It is therefore reasonable to assume that prayers may work similar to meditation on the human system.

Thoughts, refutations, links to studies?

A lot of universities now teach mindfulness and use scientific data to show its effectiveness in calming the mind. Repeating positive thoughts to oneself is a teaching of Positive Psychology (Seligman) and now used extensively to heal people with anxiety and depression. Positive thoughts, of which prayers are composed of, are now being seen by psychology as a ‘transcendental method’ of changing a negative attitude into a positive one.

 

[Heyo]

To say "prayer works" because it achieves the effect of meditation is to misunderstand what the purpose of prayer is and what is is meant to achieve.
[...]
In a Biblical sense, prayer is suppose to cause change to happen. Change in the substance of reality. Change in people. Change in circumstances. Change in spiritual dynamics. Change in just about anything you could imagine you'd want to be changed.

The effect of meditation is change, so if prayer achieves the same effects as meditation, it also achieves change. The change effected by meditation or prayer is limited to paying, though.

What studies? Can you provide links to these claimed studies of intercessory prayer?

Studies on intercessory prayer - Wikipedia

You did not clarify what you are referring to.
Insist on a difference between what?

Between the working mechanisms of meditation and prayer.

An explanation for what?

The working mechanism of prayer.

Evidence for what?

That prayer has an effect (that can't be explained by a comparison to meditation).

 

[Heyo]

A lot of universities now teach mindfulness and use scientific data to show its effectiveness in calming the mind. Repeating positive thoughts to oneself is a teaching of Positive Psychology (Seligman) and now used extensively to heal people with anxiety and depression. Positive thoughts, of which prayers are composed of, are now being seen by psychology as a ‘transcendental method’ of changing a negative attitude into a positive one.

Interesting. Do you know of any studies that confirm the efficacy of prayer?
(Showing the efficacy of Positive Psychology brings us to only the same point as I am now. Knowing that a method works and comparing that method to prayer.)

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You do realize I was joking?

No. Didn't sound like a joke.

 

[Spirit of Light]

No. Didn't sound like a joke.

It was a joke.but I am sorry if I offended you

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

(In an attempt to draw an off-topic discussion away from my OP ...)

This may surprise some but I, an Agnostic, think that prayers do "work". I don't have direct evidence but there are hints in related fields that influenced my evaluation.
There are some restrictions though:
1. Prayers don't have an influence on the world outside yourself. You can't pray for others, only for yourself.
2. It has to be "done right".

There are multiple studies that show that meditation and similar practises have an effect on the human body, especially the immune system.
Prayer, if "done right", induces a similar mental state as meditation.
It is therefore reasonable to assume that prayers may work similar to meditation on the human system.

Thoughts, refutations, links to studies?

Dear Heyo

I believe, in some respects, you’re right; directly, we only impact ourselves.

But when we change our own outlook on X - be it through prayer, meditation or ...anything, really - we often change our approach and thereby also our impact on another.

Every interaction has an indirect impact on others and on the world as we know it. Every interaction is therefore an opportunity to contribute constructively to the whole. But the will to see this and to consciously act upon it, is entirely up to ourselves.

Even-so, I find it interesting that you suggest that one can only pray for oneself. I very often pray for others.

That they may discover their own power over the context of their lives, through understanding the impact (on selves and others) of the views and actions they choose to live by;

That they better may see their part in the whole and therefore grow wiser, and wish to choose to use their power to impact constructively;

That in this mindset, God may grant them the chance to ”know” “him” (in the here and now).

And, that they too pray that others also receive this blessing.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[Kenny]

Studies on intercessory prayer - Wikipedia

There are always conflicting reports:

One of the earliest and most prominent studies ever done on the health effects of intercessory prayer was conducted by Dr. Randolph C. Byrd in 1988. In a study of 393 people admitted to the coronary care unit at San Francisco General Hospital, the patients were divided into two groups.

Half the group was selected for intercessory prayer by devout Christians, and the other half received no such treatment; the patients were randomly assigned and neither the patients nor the health staff had a clue which was the experiential group and which was the control group. The former fared significantly better than the latter.

Two explanations are possible: praying for others works, or the results were due to chance. However, the odds that this was due to chance were one in 10,000.

Those who did the praying were all devout Catholics and Protestants.

Dr. Byrd concluded that these findings "suggest intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God had a beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU [coronary care unit]."

In a similar study done in 1999 of nearly 1,000 patients in the CCU at St. Luke's Hospital in Kansas City, it was found that those who were unwittingly prayed for fared better than those who got conventional care alone. In 1998, similar conclusions were reached with AIDS patients in a study published in the Western Journal of Medicine: those who were prayed for did better than their non-prayed for counterparts.

 

[Kenny]

New and more intensive studies? Including changes in the brain through mediation.

Can Prayer Heal?

Benson has documented on MRI brain scans the physical changes that take place in the body when someone meditates. When combined with recent research from the University of Pennsylvania, what emerges is a picture of complex brain activity:....

.....

• Hospitalized people who never attended church have an average stay of three times longer than people who attended regularly.
  
  
• Heart patients were 14 times more likely to die following surgery if they did not participate in a religion.
  
  
• Elderly people who never or rarely attended church had a stroke rate double that of people who attended regularly.
  

 

[metis]

True... true. God is not necessarily moved by our wants. But when we know what God wants...

1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Yes, as I don't think anything is wrong with doing that, but I'm more into "asking" God "What can I do?". It fits into "Jesus as a lifestyle approach".

BTW, I hope I ain't coming off as being holier-than-Thou, as I could blow RF's server to shreds if I listed all my sins.

That is so refreshing!!! It is beautiful when we see someone else's prayer manifest!

Thank you.

This is right above Ghandi's wisdom! On both accounts - (At least that is what my wife says)

I wasn't referring to Gandhi as being the "Boss", so is that whom you thought I was referring to? I'm confused-- but what's new, eh!

 

[Kenny]

Yes, as I don't think anything is wrong with doing that, but I'm more into "asking" God "What can I do?". It fits into "Jesus as a lifestyle approach".

BTW, I hope I ain't coming off as being holier-than-Thou, as I could blow RF's server to shreds if I listed all my sins.

Yes!! no problem there... I just add "God give me wisdom!! so I know what to do"

I wasn't referring to Gandhi as being the "Boss", so is that whom you thought I was referring to? I'm confused-- but what's new, eh!

This is what I understood...

Wisdom of Ghandi - God is the Big "B" boss.
Wisdom of Metis - Wife is the little "b" boss.

Right on both accounts.

 

[Heyo]

There are always conflicting reports:

One of the earliest and most prominent studies ever done on the health effects of intercessory prayer was conducted by Dr. Randolph C. Byrd in 1988. In a study of 393 people admitted to the coronary care unit at San Francisco General Hospital, the patients were divided into two groups.

Half the group was selected for intercessory prayer by devout Christians, and the other half received no such treatment; the patients were randomly assigned and neither the patients nor the health staff had a clue which was the experiential group and which was the control group. The former fared significantly better than the latter.

Two explanations are possible: praying for others works, or the results were due to chance. However, the odds that this was due to chance were one in 10,000.

Those who did the praying were all devout Catholics and Protestants.

Dr. Byrd concluded that these findings "suggest intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God had a beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU [coronary care unit]."
In a similar study done in 1999 of nearly 1,000 patients in the CCU at St. Luke's Hospital in Kansas City, it was found that those who were unwittingly prayed for fared better than those who got conventional care alone.

You didn't read the article I linked to. Otherwise you'd have found that exactly those studies were cited. Studies on intercessory prayer - Wikipedia
... and the critique: "Critics have suggested that both Byrd's and Harris's results can be explained by chance.[11] Richard P. Sloan compared the Byrd and Harris studies with the sharpshooter fallacy, "searching through the data until a significant effect is found, then drawing the bull's-eye."[12]"

In 1998, similar conclusions were reached with AIDS patients in a study published in the Western Journal of Medicine: those who were prayed for did better than their non-prayed for counterparts.

That study is also listed in the article: Studies on intercessory prayer - Wikipedia
"Years later this study was debunked. The original research showed no significance so the researchers went data dredging. They isolated the few statistical figures that were significant and discarded the rest, including one metric which showed prayer had a negative outcome.[17] A later study which attempted to replicate the original found no significant difference between the study group and the control group.[18]"

You cite three studies I already handled including the debunks. Does it hurt to be so ... unaware?

 

[Heyo]

New and more intensive studies? Including changes in the brain through mediation.

Can Prayer Heal?

That article doesn't link to a study but it mentions MANTRA. Once more a study already dealt with in the Wikipedia article. Studies on intercessory prayer - Wikipedia
"The study produced null results and the authors concluded, "Neither masked prayer nor MIT therapy significantly improved clinical outcome after elective catheterization or percutaneous coronary intervention."[40]"

 

[Kenny]

That article doesn't link to a study but it mentions MANTRA. Once more a study already dealt with in the Wikipedia article. Studies on intercessory prayer - Wikipedia
"The study produced null results and the authors concluded, "Neither masked prayer nor MIT therapy significantly improved clinical outcome after elective catheterization or percutaneous coronary intervention."[40]"

So, in reality, we have "he said" and "but I said" but "his conclusions are wrong" and "the conclusion of his conclusions are wrong" and finally "the conclusion of the conclusion of his conclusions are wrong".

Yet, people still get healed by prayer.

 

[Heyo]

Dear Heyo

I believe, in some respects, you’re right; directly, we only impact ourselves.

But when we change our own outlook on X - be it through prayer, meditation or ...anything, really - we often change our approach and thereby also our impact on another.

Every interaction has an indirect impact on others and on the world as we know it. Every interaction is therefore an opportunity to contribute constructively to the whole. But the will to see this and to consciously act upon it, is entirely up to ourselves.

I think we agree here also. I have my own view on Karma, which is unlike the religious view but similar to what you describe.
Every action that gets observed by others has a slight effect on them. We are, after all, monkeys, and monkey see, monkey do.
So we co-create our social environment. We don't directly get back what we give. That's not how it works. But we get to live in a society that is, in part, shaped by us.

 

[Heyo]

So, in reality, we have "he said" and "but I said" but "his conclusions are wrong" and "the conclusion of his conclusions are wrong" and finally "the conclusion of the conclusion of his conclusions are wrong".

No. In reality we have a failed apologist who dismissed evidence without even reading it. You managed to cite/allude to four studies that have already been debunked before in the one article I linked.
With such a blunder your credibility as an honest communicator is void. You should apologize, not to me, because I caught you, but to the rest of the audience for trying to mislead and maybe to the mods who might get you for proselytizing (only trying to spread your message without communicating).

 

[DPMartin]

(In an attempt to draw an off-topic discussion away from my OP ...)

This may surprise some but I, an Agnostic, think that prayers do "work". I don't have direct evidence but there are hints in related fields that influenced my evaluation.
There are some restrictions though:
1. Prayers don't have an influence on the world outside yourself. You can't pray for others, only for yourself.
2. It has to be "done right".

There are multiple studies that show that meditation and similar practises have an effect on the human body, especially the immune system.
Prayer, if "done right", induces a similar mental state as meditation.
It is therefore reasonable to assume that prayers may work similar to meditation on the human system.

Thoughts, refutations, links to studies?

meditation isn't "prayer" prayer is a communication usually a plea or request in a humble fashion to one who has the power to fulfill the request. therefore in the case of a god one must believe that the god has such powers to fulfill the request. in the case of the God of Israel there is sufficient documentation to make one consider the validity of it.

 

[syo]

Thoughts,

A prayer works.

 

[Kenny]

No. In reality we have a failed apologist who dismissed evidence without even reading it. You managed to cite/allude to four studies that have already been debunked before in the one article I linked.
With such a blunder your credibility as an honest communicator is void. You should apologize, not to me, because I caught you, but to the rest of the audience for trying to mislead and maybe to the mods who might get you for proselytizing (only trying to spread your message without communicating).

Or... you are so flat-earth minded you don't want to consider the errors in the studies you offered

Testing Prayer: Can Science Prove the Healing Power of Prayer? | HuffPost

 

[loverofhumanity]

Interesting. Do you know of any studies that confirm the efficacy of prayer?
(Showing the efficacy of Positive Psychology brings us to only the same point as I am now. Knowing that a method works and comparing that method to prayer.)

I think that positive thoughts which is a part of Seligman’s PERMA model covers prayer because prayer is, in scientific terms, positive thought. Although he is not religious but a psychologist, he recognises the benefits of being religious which of course includes prayer.

Here is an except of a question asked him. It is quoted in this link: The Psychology of Real Happiness


You speak in your book about faith and spirituality. What role do they play in happiness?

Quite a number of roles. First, there's been evidence for a long time that people who are seriously religious are less depressed and happier and more optimistic. Secondly, people who are seriously religious are at a tremendous advantage with the third kind of happy life, the meaningful life. They use their signature strengths in the service of something much larger than they are, and that is a tried-and-true route to life satisfaction. But part of my concern is the enormous number of people who, like myself, have no religious beliefs, and yet want to lead a meaningful life. That's what the last chapter in the book's about.