Does natural selection require mutation?

[God lover]

I am looking to clarify our best scientific research in an open discussion.

I was under the impression that natural selection happens all the time. It is based on the fact that dna groupings (genes or allels) vary between parents and offspring because of different pairings of nucleotides.

However, this happens weither or not there is actually a mutation.

Natural selection is based on existing genes arrangements. There are a huge variety of hair color options already in place within the gene capacity of a species. But in order for new species development natural selection must be complimented by mutations.

In my understanding, a mutation is the adding or subtracting of coding.

This is what I have heard. I have not studied genetics in a post secondary level. I am looking to be educated. I am not posting a debate. To me a forum is a place to share ideas and discuss, not necessarily a place to debate.

Peace and looking forward to hearing what posts will come.

 

[Quintessence]

Yes, natural selection happens regardless of mutations. And yes, evolution can happen regardless of mutations as well. There are multiple mechanisms that can drive evolution, not just mutations. For example, any event that isolates a subpopulation in a novel environment with different selection pressures can cause shifts in that population's gene pool over time and lead to speciation. Granted, given the time periods we're talking about, it's kind of hard for mutations to not be happening at the same time, but it need not be the driver.

 

[DawudTalut]

Peace be on all.
Important aspects :
"Evolution cannot be attributed to mutation without explaining the gap that exists between humans and animals............Evolution of a complex life due to trillions of accidents in 4.5 billion years depends on too many chances. Hence, every step that life took, could have moved in any direction. A single step to be taken in the right direction without guidance is an unlikely chance. For each step to move invariably in the right direction, a billion times over and pursue unfalteringly the course that could lead to the creation of humans is bizarre
and unrealistic."
Explained:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qiO-C56_LNIJ:https://www.alislam.org/topics/quran/QURANIC%20CONCEPT%20OF%20EVOLUTION.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=pk

 

[Nakosis]

Yes, natural selection happens regardless of mutations. And yes, evolution can happen regardless of mutations as well. There are multiple mechanisms that can drive evolution, not just mutations. For example, any event that isolates a subpopulation in a novel environment with different selection pressures can cause shifts in that population's gene pool over time and lead to speciation. Granted, given the time periods we're talking about, it's kind of hard for mutations to not be happening at the same time, but it need not be the driver.

Genetic mutation and natural selection are different theories. When the theory of natural selection was first developed, nothing was known about genetics or DNA. The current theory is "evolutionary synthesis".
http://www.speroforum.com/a/NAKWOEL...culum-how-do-you-spell-socialism#.VeeLG_lViko

(sorry I actually meant to respond to the OP)

 

[Skwim]

Does natural selection require mutation?

Yes, natural selection does require mutation. Without mutations there would never be the variations within a particular type of organism to select for.

Genetic mutation and natural selection are different theories. When the theory of natural selection was first developed, nothing was known about genetics or DNA. The current theory is "evolutionary synthesis".

Like gravity, genetic mutation and natural selection are facts. They do exist. Any theories that may attach to them are only explanations of the "how," just as with the "theory" of gravity. And, evolutionary synthesis isn't a theory, but a combination of facts and ideas from several fields of biology and earth sciences, which, taken together, attempt to clarify and support our understanding of the process of evolution. Due to ongoing discoveries it's nature continually changes.

 

[Kirran]

Natural selection acts only upon existing variation. In fact, it acts only upon the individual phenotypes, but causes changes in allele frequencies within the population, so can be said to act upon the existing variation. That existing variation in turn comes from mutation and migration, yes. So mutation could be said to be indirectly necessary for natural selection. If there were no mutation (or migration), over time genetic drift and natural selection would act to fix an allele at every locus in a finite populationn, meaning there'd be no more fuel for natural selection. This would take a crazy long time though, especially if you throw non-random mating into the mix.

 

[Knight of Albion]

A very warm welcome to the forum, dear soul

 

[Ouroboros]

I was under the impression that natural selection happens all the time. It is based on the fact that dna groupings (genes or allels) vary between parents and offspring because of different pairings of nucleotides.

Yes. It happens all the time. Important to know is that "natural selection" allows quite a wide range of traits many times. It's not survival of the fittest, but rather death or failed reproduction of the most unfit.

However, this happens weither or not there is actually a mutation.

Yes, they're independent of each other.

Natural selection is based on existing genes arrangements. There are a huge variety of hair color options already in place within the gene capacity of a species. But in order for new species development natural selection must be complimented by mutations.

Yes. And there are different ways mutations can come into a group. It can be mixing between two "branches" with two complementary mutations. There can also be new material introduced through infection (which, if I understand it right, explains the mitochondrial DNA).

In my understanding, a mutation is the adding or subtracting of coding.

Or changing existing code. There are also mutations that can happen that doesn't change the actual peptide at all. Synonymous codons. There's a bunch of them.

This is what I have heard. I have not studied genetics in a post secondary level. I am looking to be educated. I am not posting a debate. To me a forum is a place to share ideas and discuss, not necessarily a place to debate.

You've got the right attitude. Welcome to the forum.

 

[God lover]

Yes. It happens all the time. Important to know is that "natural selection" allows quite a wide range of traits many times. It's not survival of the fittest, but rather death or failed reproduction of the most unfit.


Yes, they're independent of each other.


Yes. And there are different ways mutations can come into a group. It can be mixing between two "branches" with two complementary mutations. There can also be new material introduced through infection (which, if I understand it right, explains the mitochondrial DNA).


Or changing existing code. There are also mutations that can happen that doesn't change the actual peptide at all. Synonymous codons. There's a bunch of them.


You've got the right attitude. Welcome to the forum.

Thank you for the clarification and information. Good to be here.

 

[metis]

Thank you for the clarification and information. Good to be here.

Glad to see you here.

 

[Bunyip]

The average human has about 150,000 such minor genetic variations.

 

[God lover]

Yes, natural selection does require mutation. Without mutations there would never be the variations within a particular type of organism to select for.



Like gravity, genetic mutation and natural selection are facts. They do exist. Any theories that may attach to them are only explanations of the "how," just as with the "theory" of gravity. And, evolutionary synthesis isn't a theory, but a combination of facts and ideas from several fields of biology and earth sciences, which, taken together, attempt to clarify and support our understanding of the process of evolution. Due to ongoing discoveries it's nature continually changes.

Excellent. I have always loved science. It seems like there is always more to learn. Especially for me . lol. I'm probably somewhere in the 90's with a few recent upgrades slapped on top.

 

[God lover]

Yes, natural selection happens regardless of mutations. And yes, evolution can happen regardless of mutations as well. There are multiple mechanisms that can drive evolution, not just mutations. For example, any event that isolates a subpopulation in a novel environment with different selection pressures can cause shifts in that population's gene pool over time and lead to speciation. Granted, given the time periods we're talking about, it's kind of hard for mutations to not be happening at the same time, but it need not be the driver.

Thanks

 

[God lover]

Natural selection acts only upon existing variation. In fact, it acts only upon the individual phenotypes, but causes changes in allele frequencies within the population, so can be said to act upon the existing variation. That existing variation in turn comes from mutation and migration, yes. So mutation could be said to be indirectly necessary for natural selection. If there were no mutation (or migration), over time genetic drift and natural selection would act to fix an allele at every locus in a finite populationn, meaning there'd be no more fuel for natural selection. This would take a crazy long time though, especially if you throw non-random mating into the mix.

Well said.

 

[Smart_Guy]

***Mod Post***

This thread has been moved to the Science and Technology section.​

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes. It happens all the time. Important to know is that "natural selection" allows quite a wide range of traits many times. It's not survival of the fittest, but rather death or failed reproduction of the most unfit.

Yes. Evolution is not a ladder but a sieve.

 

[Saint_of_Me]

I am looking to clarify our best scientific research in an open discussion.

I was under the impression that natural selection happens all the time. It is based on the fact that dna groupings (genes or allels) vary between parents and offspring because of different pairings of nucleotides.

However, this happens weither or not there is actually a mutation.

Natural selection is based on existing genes arrangements. There are a huge variety of hair color options already in place within the gene capacity of a species. But in order for new species development natural selection must be complimented by mutations.

In my understanding, a mutation is the adding or subtracting of coding.

This is what I have heard. I have not studied genetics in a post secondary level. I am looking to be educated. I am not posting a debate. To me a forum is a place to share ideas and discuss, not necessarily a place to debate.

Peace and looking forward to hearing what posts will come.

Hey GL, good to see ya!

You ask a great question. But, yeah, Evolution surely DOES require random genetic mutations. In fact, that is the driving force, the very first step, in the Evolutionary process.

The way it works, if a random genetic mutation proves to offer an advantage to its host for living in its given environment, then, after many, many generations, that mutation will allow the lucky carrier to thrive and finally prevail in his eco-system. This of course increases his chances at producing off-spring. Pretty soon, what once was a random and unique mutation, or physical characteristic, becomes the norm. Think of a giraffe (of the horse family) who first got that random gene coding for a longer neck, enabling him to reach fruit and berries and other vegetation higher up on trees where his competitors could not.

ALL genetic mutations are random. There used to be an old school of thought in biological Evolution which posited that advantageous but ACQUIRED traits could be passed onto offspring. Like, say, a Dad who was born skinny and weak but pumped iron and became a body builder could pass his genetics for big muscles to his son. This has long ago been proven wrong.

The thing to remember with Evolution, with Selective Inheritance, is TIME. We're talking thousands of generations required before that first desirable genetic mutation becomes the norm in the species. If you took a photograph of every generation, since we evolved as single-celled microbes some 3 BYA, and then laid them in a stack, ending with a photo of us homo sapiens today, that stack of photographs would be FOUR MILES HIGH!

Mutation is prevalent today. You and I both have them in us, acquired from our parents. Here is an pretty interesting little article about that.............

http://www.livescience.com/33347-mutants-average-human-60-genetic-mutations.html

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I am looking to clarify our best scientific research in an open discussion.

I was under the impression that natural selection happens all the time. It is based on the fact that dna groupings (genes or allels) vary between parents and offspring because of different pairings of nucleotides.

However, this happens weither or not there is actually a mutation.

Natural selection is based on existing genes arrangements. There are a huge variety of hair color options already in place within the gene capacity of a species. But in order for new species development natural selection must be complimented by mutations.

In my understanding, a mutation is the adding or subtracting of coding.

This is what I have heard. I have not studied genetics in a post secondary level. I am looking to be educated. I am not posting a debate. To me a forum is a place to share ideas and discuss, not necessarily a place to debate.

Peace and looking forward to hearing what posts will come.

It seems like there is a wide range of opinions amongst evolutionists on this, and other mechanisms of evolution.

Some say random mutation is the driving force, some not at all, some say the gaps are real, some say the links are just missing.
some say DNA changes are driven by environment, some say not al all..

The only consensus among evolutionists seems to be; that however on earth it might work, it must be accidental!

 

[Kirran]

It seems like there is a wide range of opinions amongst evolutionists on this, and other mechanisms of evolution.

Some say random mutation is the driving force, some not at all, some say the gaps are real, some say the links are just missing.
some say DNA changes are driven by environment, some say not al all..

The only consensus among evolutionists seems to be; that however on earth it might work, it must be accidental!

These are more different ways of looking at and emphasising the same proven processes.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

These are more different ways of looking at and emphasising the same proven processes.

So was Piltdown man..