Does having a religion make you a better person?

[InChrist]

I love that denial because it's hastening Christianity's decline. A good deal of you don't want to accept that even their own egregiously misbehave and would rather just dismiss people outright than acknowledge a problem.

It’s not denial, just reality that religion is toxic. Too many professing Christians have no more than a religion and live a life that is not submitted to Jesus Christ. I’m not denying that Christians misbehave or do wrong, but those who are walking with Jesus daily do acknowledge this and seek His transforming grace so those behaviors are not repeated.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So I guess you think I’m under estimating the intellect and good intentions of American Christians. I’m still guessing what motivates your hostility but so far I still don’t care.

Of course you don't care when you portray an entire group as homogenous.
And, yes, even among American Christians there are some very good people who don't believe what you're accusing them of.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It’s not denial, just reality that religion is toxic. Too many professing Christians have no more than a religion and live a life that is not submitted to Jesus Christ. I’m not denying that Christians misbehave or do wrong, but those who are walking with Jesus daily do acknowledge this and seek His transforming grace.

That's called a no true Scotsman fallacy, and even Jesus said not to judge others, that only the Father holds that right.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That's called a no true Scotsman fallacy, and even Jesus said not to judge others, that only the Father holds that right.

The No True Scotsman fallacy is generally the most common excuse that a lot of Christians resort to in order to defend the Christian faith.

 

[InChrist]

That's called a no true Scotsman fallacy, and even Jesus said not to judge others, that only the Father holds that right.

I agree, only God accurately judges. I’m not judging anyone in particular, just speaking in general concerning the reality of religion versus a living relationship with Jesus Christ. Also, although believers should understand that God alone is the Judge of individuals, the scriptures call us to discern and judge false teachings.

 

[InChrist]

The No True Scotsman fallacy is generally the most common excuse that a lot of Christians resort to in order to defend the Christian faith.

It’s not a “ No True Scotsman”, it’s just the spiritual reality according to Jesus…

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. Matthew 7:15

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I agree, only God accurately judges. I’m not judging anyone in particular, just speaking in general concerning the reality of religion versus a living relationship with Jesus Christ. Also, although believers should understand that God alone is the Judge of individuals, the scriptures call us to discern and judge false teachings.

You are judging them as having this relationship, not being born again. Even Paul conceeds that Christians will continue to sin.

 

[King Phenomenon]

Better? No. However I think it’s a good way to introduce kids to spirituality and help them to ultimately discover the hidden truths about how we got here and were where we’re going.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You are judging them as having this relationship, not being born again. Even Paul conceeds that Christians will continue to sin.

I can't recall how many times I've heard Christians accuse other Christians of not being born again and accuse them of not being genuine believers. I was also accused of not being a genuine believer when I was a devout Christian. And according to the Bible, Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28; NIV). The vivid depiction of God in this verse doesn't sound like a loving, just, and merciful God to me. On the contrary, it appears to me that God is unjust, sadistic, barbaric, and viciously cruel.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I can't recall how many times I've heard Christians accuse other Christians of not being born again and accuse them of not being genuine believers. I was also accused of not being a genuine believer when I was a devout Christian. And according to the Bible, Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28; NIV). The vivid depiction of God in this verse doesn't sound like a loving, just, and merciful God to me. On the contrary, it appears to me that God is unjust, sadistic, barbaric, and viciously cruel.

Yup. Don't be afraid of the guys feeding you to the lions, be afraid of this being who can do worse but also says he loves you.

 

[ChieftheCef]

Actually only about half of them do believe in god.
And of course a number of religious people would say I'm confused (I strongly suspect this would be heavily and mostly conservative and orthodox Christians and Muslims). They think those who don't believe in their god are foolish, hedonistic nihilists, especially regarding those who have no religion or gods.

You'll find most people where YOU live just think you're crazy because you can't realize god of some kind in some way, not a man nor woman but a different kind of being altogether in some fashion exists.

My defense is you have no idea how atheists have shaped the world (we're having this conversation because of an atheist's efforts into computers). We love their poetry, their movies, their music, their philosophies and their inventions and discoveries.

That's not even a defense because, not only do I know that, but that doesn't even begin to prove god is not real, which is what you believe and would thus try to prove, or otherwise rationally defend Athiesm without fallacies.

You say they arw too literal and not wise, and that's your problem for not realizing how atheists have contributed to society.

Mistakes are contributions to society but very typically not made by the wise. Smart people don't see very obvious things, like for instance some kind of god, but wise people can see farther, into very unobvious things. SMart people can only do science, they can't philosophize well because they don't see what guesses to make.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Yup. Don't be afraid of the guys feeding you to the lions, be afraid of this being who can do worse but also says he loves you.

In my opinion, the biblical God is like a narcissistic and abusive father who only "loves" his children when they do or say precisely what he wants. And his children hope that if they don't make him angry, he won't hurt them, but they're unsure because he has a violent temper and is known to lash out when he is angry. So if they disobey him and upset him, then there will be hell for them to pay. That isn't a healthy relationship founded on unconditional love and respect, but rather on consistent fear and mistrust. It's an abusive relationship. According to the Bible, God is capable of hatred in addition to wrath and jealousy, and he committed global genocide. To be quite honest, I don't believe that anyone should derive their understanding of morality from the Bible.

 

[ppp]

Thise 2 billion do NOT all believe that. Like the Episcopal Priest who got me over such a mentality that did view and hold all Christians as guilty.

I know that 2 billion Christians do not all believe that. Which is why I distinctly said "a large subset of 2 billion Christians." I also recognize that the sinful nature of humans is expressed differently and to different degrees in different sects. But the majority of Christians are not Universalists. The majority align themselves with sects that hold all humans (not just Christians) are guilty of sin and that Jesus is the Great Redeemer/Saviour/Messiah/Christ/etc. Episcopalians (and Anglicans in general) have a more nuanced view of Hell than most other sects, but they are not Universalists.

That's just not the case, and many emphasis the love part amd do not believe thier god is hateful and cruel.

Many do emphasize love. And yet, the hatefulness and cruelty of sin and Hell and the need for Salvation are all still there, unrejected.

This goes back to something I said earlier in the day. Christianity is not a toxic institution just because is contains bad things. It is toxic because it prevents its adherents from acknowledging that some of its fundamental doctrines are cruel and hateful. It only allows those doctrines to be deemphasized or apologized, where what they need to be is excised.

This of course, is a problem with several religions; not only Christianity.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I am cautious of anyone who believes themselves to be incapable of wicked action and do not see the need for some kind of standard of behavior to hold themselves accountable to.

I prefer someone who knows they are wicked and keeps themselves on a leash to someone who is obliviously evil.

So why not simply be a better person? Why bring religion into it?

 

[TLK Valentine]

So, if I am a better person made so by a religion, I am a wicked person on a leash. Seems a little harsh.

Why couldn't you be a better person without the religion?

 

[TLK Valentine]

I’m truly sorry for the awful experience you endured all those years in the Christian religion. No truly born again believer who has an understanding of biblical redemption would ever tell you that you’d go to hell if you died with unrepentant sins. Clearly, what you have described was not the saving grace and love of Jesus.

Yes, well, as Nietzsche said, "There was only one True Christian, and He died on the cross."

 

[ChieftheCef]

Bull****.

Why are you denying this? Would you really want to be aggressively against people believing Jesus isn't God? I learned from chatgpt that atheists are 2-7% of the 16-18% spiritually unaffiliated.

Without your side getting along with my side we're not gonna live in a nonreligious world, we're gonna live in a religious world. Don't let Jesus outwit you and divide us from each other.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In my opinion, the biblical God is like a narcissistic and abusive father who only "loves" his children when they do or say precisely what he wants. And his children hope that if they don't make him angry, he won't hurt them, but they're unsure because he has a violent temper and is known to lash out when he is angry. So if they disobey him and upset him, then there will be hell for them to pay. That isn't a healthy relationship founded on unconditional love and respect, but rather on consistent fear and mistrust. It's an abusive relationship. According to the Bible, God is capable of hatred in addition to wrath and jealousy, and he committed global genocide. To be quite honest, I don't believe that anyone should derive their understanding of morality from the Bible.

Yup. I think it even helped to normalize and blind me to the abusiveness of my mom because that's how she is. Extremely strict, extremly picky and finicky, looking for any excuse or reason to disaprove, no tolerance for disobedience, amd entirely hypocritical with policy of do as I say, not as I do and with scarce amount if praise but an endless supply of anger and punishment for any trangression no matter how minor.

 

[ChieftheCef]

Yup. I think it even helped to normalize and blind me to the abusiveness of my mom because that's how she is. Extremely strict, extremly picky and finicky, looking for any excuse or reason to disaprove, no tolerance for disobedience, amd entirely hypocritical with policy of do as I say, not as I do and with scarce amount if praise but an endless supply of anger and punishment for any trangression no matter how minor.

I wish you well on your journey. You could explain to your mom how she is harming you if you did research on the subject, even youtube psychology.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Yup. I think it even helped to normalize and blind me to the abusiveness of my mom because that's how she is. Extremely strict, extremly picky and finicky, looking for any excuse or reason to disaprove, no tolerance for disobedience, amd entirely hypocritical with policy of do as I say, not as I do and with scarce amount if praise but an endless supply of anger and punishment for any trangression no matter how minor.

I can relate to what you've said because my Christian adoptive mother behaved similarly and was very abusive toward me for many years while I was growing up until shortly after I turned 18. I finally had enough and confronted my older brother, who was also abusive toward me. I confronted him by pushing him off the back of the couch, and he hit the floor with a loud thud. I threatened to call the police and press charges against him if he ever laid a hand on me again. My confrontation had a lasting impact on both him and my mother, and neither one ever laid a hand on me again. In fact, they started to avoid me. I saved myself from the abuse because neither God nor my extended family, the neighbors, my teachers at school, or anyone else who knew I was being abused lifted a finger to protect me and save my life. I saved myself from being abused after many years of pleading with God to protect me.