Documentary Hypothesis

[sealchan]

Ok then. That brings us back to the Hebrew word Pim. Some "scholars" argue that the book of First Samuel was written in the Hellenistic-Roman era, as late as second to the first century B.C.E. The Hebrew word pim was unknown since it's usage was discontinued in 607 B.C.E. until 1907 when it's meaning was discovered. Mentioned only at 1 Samuel 13:21. As William G. Dever, a professor of Near Eastern archaeology and anthropology said: "[Pim] cannot possibly have been ‘invented’ by writers living in the Hellenistic-Roman period several centuries after these weights had disappeared and had been forgotten. In fact, this bit of biblical text . . . would not be understood until the early 20th century A.D., when the first actual archaeological examples turned up, reading pîm in Hebrew."

Thanks for this specific thought...

What about the idea that the authors used a legendary system of measurement in order to ground their stories in the past? What about the persistence of popular stories to carry on a knowledge of a system of measurements long since rendered obsolete?

Wouldn't these be reasonable assumptions?

You have to break out of the error of assuming that the Bible is real-time reporting, which it most certainly is not, and understand that it is the crafting and recording of stories and other recorded writings probably with a sense of preserving the material out of a reverence for its authority in tradition. Still, as described in the Documentary Hypothesis, there is plenty of evidence suggesting various layers of composition over time.

 

[Earthling]

When you say stuff like this you know you are insulting the intelligence of a vast number of people who can probably easily refute your assertion...right?

If only that were the case. I wouldn't be bored off my ***.

 

[sealchan]

Please notice I said possibility, and I did not say specifically did exist. The evidence indicates an evolved text beyond oral traditions leading to first Mark then Matthew and Luke. I believe the different discrete sections of the gospels in their evolved written content, and it is likely beginning at some point as a simple biography I do believe that oral stories and traditions were melded into the gospels as they evolved.

Can you point the interested reader at one or two books on this? On my part I see that there is evidence to show contemporaneous influences in the gospel (the Roman Lives format, the current Greek prophet narrative, the Buddha's story, teachings of the Essences, etc...).

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok then. That brings us back to the Hebrew word Pim. Some "scholars" argue that the book of First Samuel was written in the Hellenistic-Roman era, as late as second to the first century B.C.E. The Hebrew word pim was unknown since it's usage was discontinued in 607 B.C.E. until 1907 when it's meaning was discovered. Mentioned only at 1 Samuel 13:21. As William G. Dever, a professor of Near Eastern archaeology and anthropology said: "[Pim] cannot possibly have been ‘invented’ by writers living in the Hellenistic-Roman period several centuries after these weights had disappeared and had been forgotten. In fact, this bit of biblical text . . . would not be understood until the early 20th century A.D., when the first actual archaeological examples turned up, reading pîm in Hebrew."

You really should link your sources so that people can check your claims properly. One minor correction. The word "pim" was not discontinued in 607 B.C.E.. That was the year that the shekel system of weights was discontinued. The word would not have immediately dropped from usage, though it would probably have dropped from usage by the second century B.C.E.. By trying to make to strong a case, by including a date that you cannot support, you hurt your cause. Here is on source that you could have linked:

A “Pim” Testifies to the Bible’s Historicity — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

But the argument is rather moot since I do not see to many scholars calling for such a late date for that book. From what I have seen it was thought to have been written in the time period of 630-540 BCE. And the use of the word "pim" would still be reasonable even for the most recent possible date. That date indicates that the books are far from historical since David supposedly existed about 500 years before that. Your source made the error of thinking that since it was not written as late as some people say that Samuel must be historical. That was an assumption based upon facts not in evidence. Ooops, that has when the Samuels were written:

Books of Samuel - Wikipedia

 

[Subduction Zone]

If only that were the case. I wouldn't be bored off my ***.

You do realize that you would have to be able to understand the refutations, don't you?

 

[Windwalker]

What would have made you think that Moses wrote about his own death?

Because the traditional claim, without the benefit of critical analysis, is that the Pentateuch was written by Moses. It's in one of the books he is said to have written where it describes the death of Moses. Obviously, Moses could not write about his own funeral.

 

[Earthling]

Because the traditional claim, without the benefit of critical analysis, is that the Pentateuch was written by Moses. It's in one of the books he is said to have written where it describes the death of Moses. Obviously, Moses could not write about his own funeral.

Obviously you can't cite that book or consider the possibility that it was written by someone else after Moses' death. Joshua, for example?

 

[Firedragon-2]

Why?

Thanks for your thoughts. Appreciate it.

 

[Firedragon-2]

Which version?

Your response actually got me interested. Im sorry but I only know of one version as taught everywhere. Although, I would love to know about the different versions. Please be kind enough to enlighten.

 

[shunyadragon]

Can you point the interested reader at one or two books on this? On my part I see that there is evidence to show contemporaneous influences in the gospel (the Roman Lives format, the current Greek prophet narrative, the Buddha's story, teachings of the Essences, etc...).

I am not sure what you mean by contemporaneous influence, but . . .

, , , fhe following is an interesting source on the evolution of the gospels.

The Story Of The Storytellers - What Are The Gospels? | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS

More to follow . . .

 

[shunyadragon]

Obviously you can't cite that book or consider the possibility that it was written by someone else after Moses' death. Joshua, for example?

There is absolutely nothing that it was written prior to 700 BCE, and that is a stretch. The oldest documents are the Dead Sea scrolls. The Pentateuch is a compilation of no known author.

 

[Earthling]

There is absolutely nothing that it was written prior to 700 BCE, and that is a stretch. The oldest documents are the Dead Sea scrolls. The Pentateuch is a compilation of no known author.

So, then, your contention is that for thousands of years, scrolls prior to those found in the Dead Sea area, couldn't have existed because we haven't found them, therefore, the Bible was written some time during the period of those extant manuscripts?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That date indicates that the books are far from historical since David supposedly existed about 500 years before that.

Supposedly?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Supposedly?

Hard to say how real David was. He probably was a real person by much of his life as,in the Bible may have been a rewrite. A la Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hard to say how real David was. He probably was a real person by much of his life as,in the Bible may have been a rewrite. A la Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter.

And Shakespeare may have been the author of the plays attributed to him.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And Shakespeare may have been the author of the plays attributed to him.

Not even close. But then some here try to justify the existence of Moses.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It appears that there is precious little interest in the DH.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not even close. But then some here try to justify the existence of Moses.

And some, for whom mythicism has become a mantra, are invested in denying such existence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And some, for whom mythicism has become a mantra, are invested in denying such existence.

No, Moses clearly was a myth, at least one far beyond Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter. The Exodus as good in The Bible clearly did not occur. Parts of the Moses myth were clearly lifted from other stories. Why would you think that he was real?

 

[Subduction Zone]

And some, for whom mythicism has become a mantra, are invested in denying such existence.

In case you did not know abusing the rating system is a violation of the rules here. I asked a.serious question. You appear to believe the Moses myth. Why do you believe it?