Do you want a teaching that....

[Spirit of Light]

My societal culture says "we are blind and now we see." There's a sense that we are all at the bottom and we need to work our way to the top of the mountain whether we believe we are inherently bad (ego, sinful, so have you) and striving to be good (to see the light, spiritual awakening, heaven). It's a very depressing way to think of oneself, in my opinion, and does quite the opposite.

Instead, I often compare it to being at a skating rink. I am "already" who I am. When I practice a new move or fall it's not from an imperfect nature. It's the same as skating skilled. If you feel you can no longer fall (at the mountain top) you loose humility in what you can learn when you fall-that is part of enlightenment not a step towards it. With this in mind I can skate and be skilled all I want but as soon as I figure I will never fall (I'm at the mountain top) I'm just basking in a spiritual high.

I would say transform but not to be at an end result.
Why follow a teacher when she feels she can no longer learn from those she teaches?
Why follow a teacher that believes he can no longer be taught?
(Rhetorical questions)

Just because you take off your training wheels doesn't mean you won't fall off your bike.

In other words, I don't care for the idea of divinity. It prevents me from being transformed WITH my faults (change perspective and learn from them).

“She was no longer wrestling with the grief, but could sit down with it as a lasting companion and make it a sharer in her thoughts.” ~ George Eliot

I can not speak for you, or others So your views are valued

My own teacher has a teacher too, so a teacher can reach higher levels too of course. If the student going past the teacher in wisdom and understanding, the student would seek a new teacher.
For me that would probably not happen since my level is not that high.
So the teacher is guiding and answering questions, but I am the one who has to do all the hardships on my own, I am the one who have to transform.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can not speak for you, or others So your views are valued

My own teacher has a teacher too, so a teacher can reach higher levels too of course. If the student going past the teacher in wisdom and understanding, the student would seek a new teacher.
For me that would probably not happen since my level is not that high.
So the teacher is guiding and answering questions, but I am the one who has to do all the hardships on my own, I am the one who have to transform.

Yeah. I see it more you're transforming with your thoughts rather than surpassing them. You're learning to see faults (ego, etc) from a learning perspective to enhance spiritual growth rather than a barrier to it.

 

[PureX]

The question is:

Do you want a teaching that you like? Or do you want a teaching that transforms you?

To transform you have to do the things you do not like.....those that make you suffer before you see the light.

Why would I want to be "transformed"? And transformed into what?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Why would I want to be "transformed"? And transformed into what?

That answer would depend on which path one was on in life
But it could be in a spiritual path /religion to change from seeing only the ego/self to see unconditional love to all living beings.

 

[PureX]

That answer would depend on which path one was on in life
But it could be in a spiritual path /religion to change from seeing only the ego/self to see unconditional love to all living beings.

Why would I want to feel unconditional love for all living beings? I have to eat some of those living beings to stay living, myself. And some of those living beings are trying to eat me for the same reason. So, what's unconditional love going to do about it? I actually think love is special because it's NOT unconditional. It's rare. And it's dangerous. Which means it's an exceptional gift to find oneself being loved, and being willing to love someone else.

One of the major problems I have with religions the world over is that they are constantly telling people that they aren't good enough. That we need to love each other more, and unconditionally. Yet these religions aren't loving us unconditionally, or they wouldn't be telling us we aren't good enough. They would be telling us just the opposite! That we are wonderful, and fantastic, just as we are. Because THAT'S what unconditional love would do. Religions are nothing BUT a whole pile of conditions and expectations and condemnations and admonishments. They talk about love but I never see a lot of loving activity coming from them, to anyone. Not even their own members. All I see is "be better", "try harder", "sacrifice more" ... I wouldn't put up with that from anyone, and I won't put up with it from religion, either.

As I get older I find that I can genuinely love people for no reason except that they exist. Not all the time, of course, but often, when I'm not distracted by life, I catch myself looking at a stranger on the street and marveling at how special they are. Hoping they know it. Wishing them a great day just because they exist. All religion would do for me is get in the way. It would fog up my natural love for humanity with a bunch of stupid rules and rituals and reasons. I have no reason to love, and I don't need one. It's just a natural inclination that comes of it's own accord. No religion required, and none to muck up the works.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Why would I want to feel unconditional love for all living beings? I have to eat some of those living beings to stay living, myself. And some of those living beings are trying to eat me for the same reason. So, what's unconditional love going to do about it? I actually think love is special because it's NOT unconditional. It's rare. And it's dangerous. Which means it's an exceptional gift to find oneself being loved, and being willing to love someone else.

One of the major problems I have with religions the world over is that they are constantly telling people that they aren't good enough. That we need to love each other more, and unconditionally. Yet these religions aren't loving us unconditionally, or they wouldn't be telling us we aren't good enough. They would be telling us just the opposite! That we are wonderful, and fantastic, just as we are. Because THAT'S what unconditional love would do. Religions are nothing BUT a whole pile of conditions and expectations and condemnations and admonishments. They talk about love but I never see a lot of loving activity coming from them, to anyone. Not even their own members. All I see is "be better", "try harder", "sacrifice more" ... I wouldn't put up with that from anyone, and I won't put up with it from religion, either.

As I get older I find that I can genuinely love people for no reason except that they exist. Not all the time, of course, but often, when I'm not distracted by life, I catch myself looking at a stranger on the street and marveling at how special they are. Hoping they know it. Wishing them a great day just because they exist. All religion would do for me is get in the way. It would fog up my natural love for humanity with a bunch of stupid rules and rituals and reasons. I have no reason to love, and I don't need one. It's just a natural inclination that comes of it's own accord. No religion required, and none to muck up the works.

Only you know why unconditional love feels not right for you, that I can not answer.

Many religions have guidelines how to practice to find God for the ones who follow the teaching, but it does not fit for everyone

 

[PureX]

Only you know why unconditional love feels not right for you, that I can not answer.

It feels just fine to me. But it's not a logical absolute goal. That's all I'm saying.

Many religions have guidelines how to practice to find God for the ones who follow the teaching, but it does not fit for everyone

I have done a lot of reading over the years about religion, from people who have given their lives to their "God". And one of the things many of those people share in common is that they eventually had to let go of religion, to find and hold onto God in their reality.

Religions are tremendously abstracting. They separate the real from the ideal to help people see and follow the ideal. But often at the cost of the real. Millions of people love this abstract image of Jesus that they hold in their minds, with all their hearts, and yet never do a damn thing to help their neighbors in need, because in their obsessive devotion to their imaginary Jesus, they never even noticed their neighbor suffering. Sometimes, to become a true Christian, you have to let go of the religion, to embody the Christ. And when you do let go, the religionists will often try very hard to stop you!

 

[Spirit of Light]

It feels just fine to me. But it's not a logical absolute goal. That's all I'm saying.
I have done a lot of reading over the years about religion, from people who have given their lives to their "God". And one of the things many of those people share in common is that they eventually had to let go of religion, to find and hold onto God in their reality.

Religions are tremendously abstracting. They separate the real from the ideal to help people see and follow the ideal. But often at the cost of the real. Millions of people love this abstract image of Jesus that they hold in their minds, with all their hearts, and yet never doing a damn thing to help their neighbors, because in their obsessive devotion to their religion, they never even noticed their neighbor suffering. Sometime to become a true Christian, you have to let go of the religion, to become the Christ. And when you do let go, the religionists will often try to stop you!

A part of the path in the very end would be to let the attachment to it all go, that is true even the attachment one may hold to be with God, that is not many who are able to do. But this is not a part of the normal religion we see in church or mosques, in Sufism this is a part of the teaching as I discovered some time ago. That does not make the other religions wrong, bad or useless. Each person will find their path and I believe it is good to support them,

The part of not helping the neighbours enough, that may lay within the aspect of ego that people may hold too dear.

 

[PureX]

A part of the path in the very end would be to let the attachment to it all go, that is true even the attachment one may hold to be with God, that is not many who are able to do. But this is not a part of the normal religion we see in church or mosques, in Sufism this is a part of the teaching as I discovered some time ago. That does not make the other religions wrong, bad or useless. Each person will find their path and I believe it is good to support them,

The part of not helping the neighbors enough, that may lay within the aspect of ego that people may hold too dear.

I have an analogy from my own life ...

I am a recovered alcoholic. When I first got sober, I had to go to AA meetings every day for many months. Sometimes more than one meeting a day. I also went to a very good psychologist twice a week for almost 2 years, and I attended an excellent weekly Bible discussion group (Lutheran, as I recall). And I needed all that help, believe me. The first two years sober were TERRIBLE! I was miserable all the time because I had never learned how not to be. Being miserable had always been my excuse to drink, so I never bothered to learn how not to be miserable, except now I couldn't drink, anymore. So I was stuck in my misery 24-7.

I needed those meetings with those other alcoholics in the group who had more time and practice at being sober to teach me how to do it, and more importantly, teach me how to be happy doing it. And it took a long time. But by about 5 years in I was feeling pretty good. I had finally learned how to be relatively happy, sober, and I was helping others to do the same. But by about the 8th year, it was time for me to leave the recovery groups. I had a good life, a good job, a good relationship, and I didn't even think about drinking, anymore. ... except when I'd go to those meetings and hear the tales of woe from the newly recovering alcoholics. And I finally understood that it was time for me to leave that behind. It had reached the point where the recovery circles were actually holding me back, instead of moving me forward.

I think a similar thing happens with religion. It's good for what it's good for, but the goal is actually to reach a point where it's no longer needed. And if you stay in it too long, it becomes a kind of ball and chain, holding you "in need", forever.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I have an analogy from my own life ...

I am a recovered alcoholic. When I first got sober, I had to go to AA meetings every day for many months. Sometimes more than one meeting a day. I also went to a very good psychologist twice a week for almost 2 years, and I attended an excellent weekly Bible discussion group (Lutheran, as I recall). And I needed all that help, believe me. The first two years sober were TERRIBLE! I was miserable all the time because I had never learned how not to be. Being miserable had always been my excuse to drink, so I never bothered to learn how not to be miserable, except now I couldn't drink, anymore. So I was stuck in my misery 24-7.

I needed those meeting with those other alcoholics in the group who had more time and practice at being sober to teach me how to do it, and more importantly, teach me how to be happy doing it. And it took a long time. But by about 5 years in I was feeling pretty good. I had finally learned how to be relatively happy, sober, and I was helping others to do the same. But by about 8th year, it was time for me to leave the recovery groups. I had a good life, a good job, a good relationship, and I didn't even think about drinking, anymore. ... except when I'd go to those meetings and hear the tales of woe from the newly recovering alcoholics. And I finally understood that it was time for me to leave that behind. It had reached the point where the recovery circles were actually holding me back, instead of moving me forward.

I think a similar thing happens with religion. It's good for what it's good for, but the goal is actually to reach a point where it's no longer needed. And if you stay in it too long, it becomes a kind of ball and chain, holding you "in need", forever.

To be honest, you write a lot of wisdom in this reply, and I do agree with you when you see your experience and the path of spirituality the way you did here.
Both what you have been through and the spiritual path are difficult until one realizes how to get "there" then it becomes easier
Hope that made sense

 

[PureX]

To be honest, you write a lot of wisdom in this reply, and I do agree with you when you see your experience and the path of spirituality the way you did here.
Both what you have been through and the spiritual path are difficult until one realizes how to get "there" then it becomes easier
Hope that made sense

The most amazing thing, to me, is that the "there" I was trying to get to all those years was always right here; within me. The thing I was seeking had been in my own hands all along. What I was recovering, in recovery, was myself. ... Was the man I would have been had I not fallen into the abyss of alcoholism.

I am a (philosophical) Taoist, as you know. And this is in large part why. Taoism neither promotes nor rejects religion. It simply accepts that religions are a part of the way humanity exists. And so would say use it to the degree that it's useful, and reject it when it's not. And this makes a great deal of sense to me. It's simple, and obvious, and healthy. So I hold religions and their various ideals in my own mind in the same way. To be used as needed.

The purpose of religion is to serve humanity, It is not the purpose of humanity to serve religion. This is the "PureX Prime Directive". And any religion or religionist that tries to tell me otherwise gets the HAND!

 

[alypius]

Do you want a teaching that you like? Or do you want a teaching that transforms you?

Could teaching transform you but be a false teaching?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Could teaching transform you but be a false teaching?

False teaching would probably have some truth in it so people would be interested in learning, but one would not meet the creator through false teaching (that's how I understand it)

The question is: what is false teaching?

 

[Praise Jah]

The question is:

Do you want a teaching that you like? Or do you want a teaching that transforms you?

To transform you have to do the things you do not like.....those that make you suffer before you see the light.

I want the truth.

Jehovah God's will is that people come to an accurate knowledge of truth:

This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

Our worship must conform to God's will and observe his commandments:

For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome. (1John 5:3)


Worship that teaches commands of men and tickles the ears is in vain and inspired by demons:

It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines. (Matthew 15:9)

For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

The inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons. (1 Timothy 4:1)

 

[Segev Moran]

The question is:

Do you want a teaching that you like? Or do you want a teaching that transforms you?

To transform you have to do the things you do not like.....those that make you suffer before you see the light.

I like the teachings that transform me to what I like.