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Do you want a teaching that....

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
The question is:

Do you want a teaching that you like? Or do you want a teaching that transforms you?

To transform you have to do the things you do not like.....those that make you suffer before you see the light.
the self creates suffering by trying to maintain/project an image, a personality.

altruism doesn't create suffering.


 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
A useful start is their "Shivambu" start of the day.

I did it for many years. Took ca. 3 days to overcome initial physical disgust, but ca. 3 weeks to overcome mental disgust.

Interesting. Is Shivambu a scriptural Hindu practice or is it as some say imported recently? I mean in the early 20th century?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Interesting. Is Shivambu a scriptural Hindu practice or is it as some say imported recently? I mean in the early 20th century?
They attribute it to Shiva, so I would not be surprised that it is mentioned somewhere in the ancient Hindu Scripture (vaguely I remember even having seen those Sanskrit lines, but don't ask me where, that's more than 30 years ago)

Note: Even my grandmother, who lived for 92 years, and who was a devout Christian, and not interested in India, told me, when I told her about Shivambu, "Oh yes, of course I know, we used it also when we were young ... helped against all kind of troubles" (so, as my grandmother was born ca. 1900, it could still be imported quite recently, but not early 20th century, then it would be at least early 19th century). But my gut feeling tells me that people knew about Shivambu way before this (if my grandmother already knew it, and she was very Christian, far away from any other religion)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The question is:

Do you want a teaching that you like? Or do you want a teaching that transforms you?

To transform you have to do the things you do not like.....those that make you suffer before you see the light.

I think, if a teaching feels like suffering, it should not be practiced. It depends how you would look at it I suppose. Diabetes patients consider their diets suffering sometimes. But they do it for their wellbeing. A martial artist might consider his training as a suffering. Some do. But its a good suffering with benefits, and soon it is enjoyable.

But there are some practices that I think are invalid because people do them for some divine purpose or to get close to God or even as a path of enlightenment. Like in Buddhism it teaches that the Buddha stopped doing his Dhushkara Kriya or difficult tasks or sufferings, and got onto Madhyama or the middle which means not over indulging like an idiot, but also not suffering like a fool. Middle path. Madhyama Prathipadha.

Even in the Qur'an it speaks of religion not to be taken as a burden or a suffering.

In my personal opinion, people invariably tend to invent a lot of things as "sufferings" to teach others for whatever reasons and attribute them to God and enlightenment. I guess this might be coming from humans urge for seeking that so called "higher truth".

Speaking of transformation, I have a friend of mine who owned a few night clubs. I personally know that he spent approximately 300,000 dollars gambling. Just wasted the money. I think something went wrong at that point in his life, but the guy was married and had a kid. Good guy. Well, his transformation came from some hallucinogenic drug. I mean this guy is a transformed man. He sold his dirty clubs (no pun intended) and opened top class, decent night clubs, and became quite successful, and has a very good family life. Just one day. Thats it. ;)

I am interested in knowing what kind of teaching you are specifically referring to if you have some time.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Interesting. Is Shivambu a scriptural Hindu practice or is it as some say imported recently? I mean in the early 20th century?
Coincidentally, a friend I met in India, at the Ashram of Sai Baba, who also used to do Shivambu, send me a few days ago, out of the blue, below link

Knowing Yourself: THE WATER OF AUSPICIOUSNESS: SHIVAMBU KALPA VIDHI

Note: I do take those verses with a grain (or 2) of salt though, and definitely when drinking Shivambu, you better don't take more than a few grains of salt, otherwise the Shivambu experience can taste quite "salty". Sometimes the writers of Scriptures seem to exaggerate a bit, this seems one of those cases, if you ask me (reading about 'flying in the air', it never happened to me, and I was drinking it for more than 8 years I think:D). But that was not my intention, I just was interested in the experience and face my judgmental mind
 
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Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I think, if a teaching feels like suffering, it should not be practiced. It depends how you would look at it I suppose. Diabetes patients consider their diets suffering sometimes. But they do it for their wellbeing. A martial artist might consider his training as a suffering. Some do. But its a good suffering with benefits, and soon it is enjoyable.

But there are some practices that I think are invalid because people do them for some divine purpose or to get close to God or even as a path of enlightenment. Like in Buddhism it teaches that the Buddha stopped doing his Dhushkara Kriya or difficult tasks or sufferings, and got onto Madhyama or the middle which means not over indulging like an idiot, but also not suffering like a fool. Middle path. Madhyama Prathipadha.

Even in the Qur'an it speaks of religion not to be taken as a burden or a suffering.

In my personal opinion, people invariably tend to invent a lot of things as "sufferings" to teach others for whatever reasons and attribute them to God and enlightenment. I guess this might be coming from humans urge for seeking that so called "higher truth".

Speaking of transformation, I have a friend of mine who owned a few night clubs. I personally know that he spent approximately 300,000 dollars gambling. Just wasted the money. I think something went wrong at that point in his life, but the guy was married and had a kid. Good guy. Well, his transformation came from some hallucinogenic drug. I mean this guy is a transformed man. He sold his dirty clubs (no pun intended) and opened top class, decent night clubs, and became quite successful, and has a very good family life. Just one day. Thats it. ;)

I am interested in knowing what kind of teaching you are specifically referring to if you have some time.
The suffering I speak of in the OP is in the practice when we working on the Nafs, the nafs or ego want us to cling to this physical world, but as a practitioner, we understand the real-life is with God and when the ego trying to make us want, like, lust for, feel greed and so on, it creates suffering because it is not what we seeking, but we feel suffering when we can not have what feels good.

It is this form of suffering within the practice that I may be clumsy try to convey.

For a sufi the only truly important in life is being closer to Allah, and the practice of conquering the ego is the hardest one
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
They attribute it to Shiva, so I would not be surprised that it is mentioned somewhere in the ancient Hindu Scripture (vaguely I remember even having seen those Sanskrit lines, but don't ask me where, that's more than 30 years ago)

Note: Even my grandmother, who lived for 92 years, and who was a devout Christian, and not interested in India, told me, when I told her about Shivambu, "Oh yes, of course I know, we used it also when we were young ... helped against all kind of troubles" (so, as my grandmother was born ca. 1900, it could still be imported quite recently, but not early 20th century, then it would be at least early 19th century). But my gut feeling tells me that people knew about Shivambu way before this (if my grandmother already knew it, and she was very Christian, far away from any other religion)

As far as I know, and I could be wrong, Shivambu is not Vedic or scriptural. Maybe vaguely. And it was practiced in the west like in England before the 1900's. So I am no expert in this, but I have heard that this came to India as such a practice around that time. Shivambu may have been practiced globally, and may have been there for a long long time. I mean it was tradition, so no one can say when it began. I guess it to have become a religious kind of practice in India, it was a latter development. But this is not some expert commentary. ;) Just like around the world, if Indians did practice it, it probably was for medicinal purposes. Even that could have been imported from England.

If you find some scripture just let me know.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Coincidentally, a friend I met in India, at the Ashram of Sai Baba, who also used to do Shivambu, send me a few days ago, out of the blue, below link

Knowing Yourself: THE WATER OF AUSPICIOUSNESS: SHIVAMBU KALPA VIDHI

Note: I do take those verses with a grain (or 2) of salt though, and definitely when drinking Shivambu, you better don't take more than a few grains of salt, otherwise the Shivambu experience can taste quite "salty". Sometimes the writers of Scriptures seem to exaggerate a bit, this seems one of those cases, if you ask me (reading about 'flying in the air', it never happened to me, and I was drinking it for more than 8 years I think:D). But that was not my intention, I just was interested in the experience and face my judgmental mind

Do you consider this Shivambu Kalpa scripture? (I have not read it btw. Just asking).
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Do you consider this Shivambu Kalpa scripture? (I have not read it btw. Just asking).
Nowadays with all this fake news, I don't know what to believe or not, when it comes to Scripture verses (people posting on the internet, can make up anything, easily adding words or editing words even (even Sanskrit). But even such things could have happened with original Scriptures)

So, to answer your question: I don't know if it is an original Scripture given/inspired by God or not
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The suffering I speak of in the OP is in the practice when we working on the Nafs, the nafs or ego want us to cling to this physical world, but as a practitioner, we understand the real-life is with God and when the ego trying to make us want, like, lust for, feel greed and so on, it creates suffering because it is not what we seeking, but we feel suffering when we can not have what feels good.

It is this form of suffering within the practice that I may be clumsy try to convey.

For a sufi the only truly important in life is being closer to Allah, and the practice of conquering the ego is the hardest one

Ah. I understand what you say.

I dont understand nafs as ego. But it would probably depend on how you render the English word "ego". I understand "nafs" as "self". The Quranic words Faqbilu anfusakum means "turn toward yourself", but if you translate it "turn toward your ego" the whole meaning changes. But that's just a side point.

The Qur'an says, "have you seen the one who takes his Havah as ilah". That means "desire as God". This desire or Havah is actually "ego". And it says vehemently, very clearly, this is shirk. Taking your ego/desire as God is shirk.

Peace.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Nowadays with all this fake news, I don't know what to believe or not, when it comes to Scripture verses (people posting on the internet, can make up anything, easily adding words or editing words even (even Sanskrit). But even such things could have happened with original Scriptures)

Haha. Brother, the internet is full of nonsense. Thats why one has to go to the direct source. I agree.

Anyway, thanks for the information. Very interesting isn't it. Life's good.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Ah. I understand what you say.

I dont understand nafs as ego. But it would probably depend on how you render the English word "ego". I understand "nafs" as "self". The Quranic words Faqbilu anfusakum means "turn toward yourself", but if you translate it "turn toward your ego" the whole meaning changes. But that's just a side point.

The Qur'an says, "have you seen the one who takes his Havah as ilah". That means "desire as God". This desire or Havah is actually "ego". And it says vehemently, very clearly, this is shirk. Taking your ego/desire as God is shirk.

Peace.
I am fully agreeing with what you say here @firedragon
I had a feeling when using the word nafs you would get where I wanted you to see the OP from,
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
The question is:

Do you want a teaching that you like? Or do you want a teaching that transforms you?

To transform you have to do the things you do not like.....those that make you suffer before you see the light.

Transformative teaching, for I am not already perfect. In this current state I think if I liked a teaching (that is liked following it, for you can like things in different senses, but one that was not painful at all to follow and had no self-sacrifice) I would be suspect that it was false.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The question is:

Do you want a teaching that you like? Or do you want a teaching that transforms you?

To transform you have to do the things you do not like.....those that make you suffer before you see the light.
Neither. I want a teaching that can be used.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The question is:

Do you want a teaching that you like? Or do you want a teaching that transforms you?

To transform you have to do the things you do not like.....those that make you suffer before you see the light.

My societal culture says "we are blind and now we see." There's a sense that we are all at the bottom and we need to work our way to the top of the mountain whether we believe we are inherently bad (ego, sinful, so have you) and striving to be good (to see the light, spiritual awakening, heaven). It's a very depressing way to think of oneself, in my opinion, and does quite the opposite.

Instead, I often compare it to being at a skating rink. I am "already" who I am. When I practice a new move or fall it's not from an imperfect nature. It's the same as skating skilled. If you feel you can no longer fall (at the mountain top) you loose humility in what you can learn when you fall-that is part of enlightenment not a step towards it. With this in mind I can skate and be skilled all I want but as soon as I figure I will never fall (I'm at the mountain top) I'm just basking in a spiritual high.

I would say transform but not to be at an end result.
Why follow a teacher when she feels she can no longer learn from those she teaches?
Why follow a teacher that believes he can no longer be taught?
(Rhetorical questions)

Just because you take off your training wheels doesn't mean you won't fall off your bike.

In other words, I don't care for the idea of divinity. It prevents me from being transformed WITH my faults (change perspective and learn from them).

“She was no longer wrestling with the grief, but could sit down with it as a lasting companion and make it a sharer in her thoughts.” ~ George Eliot
 
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