Shad
Veteran Member
No as those are just claims not evidence of the claims
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Do you think this points to the body having a spirit that goes beyond death?
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
No as those are just claims not evidence of the claims
cataway
Well-Known Member
Jesus was baptized . what sin did he commit ?
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Baptism isnt just the forgiveness of sins. The main point of baptism is to make God right. IT is all about God's righteousness. God is right that the flesh or sin nature has to be put to death. And that's what Jesus did, he had to die. We follow him into death symbollically and we are raised with him symbollically. Jesus knew that he had to die and why. He knew that his flesh or sin nature had to be put to death. Jesus says follow me. Do we? Yes we do.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
So I'm guessing there's something like a spirit waiting room?
I'll bet it has Betty Davis there managing the processing.
cataway
Well-Known Member
John baptizes people in symbol, or acknowledgment, of their heartfelt repentance for sins against God’s Law covenant.
Jesus was sinless, he was not baptized to symbolize repentance. His baptism symbolized his presentation of himself to God for the doing of his Father’s will.
Yes.
cataway
Well-Known Member
''God's spirit in us'' ?? the life force ,known as bioelectricity is the current the ''spirit'' that is in man ,is in every living animal .
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
According to 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6: when Jesus died he went to preach to spirits of the dead. How did they listen if unconscious?
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Symbol and acknowledgement are not the same. John baptized people for the remissions of sins. Paul baptized people in the name of Jesus. Two different things. John couldnt baptize people into the name of Christ or the death and resurrection because Jesus wasnt dead yet.
Plus, I never said that Jesus was baptized into repentance. Read my post what I said about Jesus's baptism.
He did not preach to the spirits of the dead because there are no spirits of the dead. He preached to the disobedient angels who were in spiritual confinement because of what they did in Noah's day, forcing God to act in a drastic fashion.
Jude 6...
"And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day."
These bonds of dense darkness mean that these rebel angels (now demons) get no spiritual enlightenment. They are under restraint because they abused their powers to materialize and led humanity astray. The populated the world of that time with monstrous children who were extremely violent and immoral. God wiped them out of existence and forced their errant fathers back to the spirit realm by flooding the earth.
1 Peter 3:18-20...
"For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls were carried safely through the water."
Jesus is called the "firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18) but he was not the first human to be resurrected. He was the first human to die in the flesh and be resurrected in the spirit. i.e. resurrected as a spirit being, which enabled him to return to heaven. Bodies of flesh cannot exist in heaven. All those chosen to rule with Christ must die the same death as he did in order to enter heaven. But all had to wait in their graves until the time of Christ's return as Paul said. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) No one goes anywhere when they die except to their graves. (Sheol...hades)
1 Peter 4:6...
"In fact, this is why the good news was declared also to the dead, so that although they are judged in the flesh from the standpoint of men, they might live in harmony with the spirit from God’s standpoint."
There is more than one meaning for being "dead" in the scriptures.
Ephesians 2:1...
"Furthermore, God made you alive, though you were dead in your trespasses and sins".
This indicates being spiritually dead.....i.e. being "dead" to God.
The idea that we don't really die, came from the devil in Eden.....he told the woman "You surely will not die"....but he lied.
Hi Morea.....we have a slightly different point of view on that, though we seem to share many beliefs in common.
The baptism of Jesus Christ was not putting his flesh or sin nature to death because he simply didn't have one. As a sinless equivalent of Adam, he was the atonement..."at-one-ment" meaning 'one in exchange for the other'. The redemption laws in Israel meant that if an Israelite got into debt and was unable to pay it back, a benefactor could offer to pay the debt for him and cancel it, otherwise the debtor would be a slave forever. Christ is our Redeemer. The only one who had the right 'payment' in order to cancel the debt.
No human could pay the debt because no one had the means.....what Adam lost for his children was perfect sinless life and only an equivalent payment could release his children from the debt that they inherited. God sent him and he willingly accepted the assignment even though it was going to be a very tough mission.
Christian baptism to us is mirrored in what Jesus said to John in Matthew 3:13-15....
"Then Jesus came from Galʹi·lee to the Jordan to John, in order to be baptized by him. 14 But the latter tried to prevent him, saying: “I am the one who needs to be baptized by you, and are you coming to me?” 15 Jesus replied to him: “Let it be this time, for in that way it is suitable for us to carry out all that is righteous.” Then he quit preventing him."
So you are correct that it was to bring about God's righteousness, but it was also a symbol of his dedication in taking up his commission as Messiah. He symbolically died to his own will that day and was raised to do the will of his Father in all things. Our baptism carries that meaning too.....we die to a former selfish life and are raised to do the will of God. Baptism is a serious commitment and carries a weight of responsibility to live up to our dedication, since it is made from our own free will.
That is how we see it.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I don't know about Betty Davis, but yeah, I guess you could put it that way. Why would God send our spirits to either heaven or hell prior to the last judgment, and then call them back and say, "Oops, I sent you to the wrong place. Change of plans!" Besides, I don't believe that death is like the final curtain drawn at the end of a play. It's more like the intermission. I can't imagine God condemning people to everlasting torment who had lived their entire lives without ever having heard of Jesus Christ. Nor can I imagine him giving all of them a free pass into heaven. I believe that learning and growing and changing and progressing continues in the Spirit World (that waiting room you mentioned) and that prior to the last judgment, everyone who has ever lived will be given the opportunity to hear and understand Jesus' gospel and either accept or reject it.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
The couldn't have, could they? And why would He have even bothered if He wasn't going to give them the opportunity to believe and accept what He was teaching them.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It was meant as a bit of a joke. I don't expect a lot of people to get it today as much though. I was thinking of the waiting room in the movie Beetlejuice.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Wow, that takes me back a ways! I'd forgotten that completely!
We sometimes get people who ask..."what about those who lived in lands or at times when the true God and his Christ were not known or acknowledged?" It seems harsh to judge people adversely when they had no choice in a matter. Our religion and beliefs are largely dictated by our country of origin and the faith and beliefs of our family and community. But according to our scripture, people living at "the time of the end" are the only ones who will be judged....for no other reason than that they are alive at the time when Christ returns to bring humanity to an accounting. We have been expecting Christ's return for a long time and now it seems as if prophesy is all coming together as the world is brought to its knees by something so small that we cant even see it. This enemy cannot be conquered at the moment, and it is taking hundreds of thousands of lives all over the world, mostly of those too old or weak to fight it.
For the ones who have died, these have paid sin's wages....IOW they have suffered the death penalty and now all their sins are cancelled. Death was the highest penalty paid under God's law.....they have paid for past sins with their own death.
These are the ones who will be judged, not for what they did in the past, but for how they conduct themselves in the future. They will be resurrected to life on earth, and have 1,000 years to get it together and prove that they are worthy citizens of a transformed planet earth. The paradise that God gave our first parents will be returned so that God's will can be "done on earth as it is in heaven".
You have to understand the Bible's overall message....it is not racial but it has to do with whom or what we choose to worship....if we worship at all.
The apostle Peter said..."Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." (Acts 10:34-35)
Its all about worshipping the true God in the way that he says he should be worshipped. We are not free to practice our "own" religion as if we are the sole arbiters of what is acceptable to God or not. He is the one who dictates to us because he is the Sovereign of the Universe...we are his children and we are to respect him as such and practice what he deems to be acceptable worship.
OK...at birth, I believe that we are a new creation....the genetic product of our parents. I do not believe that we have lived before our birth, or that we will live on after death. We are who we are while we are in this body. We are judged by the choices we make in this life.
So at birth, we are a 'blank canvas' so to speak. Who we are and what we become in life is largely dictated by our genetics and our environment. Our parents contribute to our education in many ways as role models and teachers of their own life skills. Some are obviously better educators than others and some unfortunately were not cut out to be parents and its usually their own role modeling that has let them down. Generations of poor and uneducated people often lack the opportunity to better themselves and attitudes can be adopted that prevent them from breaking the mold. Some can break free and become whatever they wish, in spite of their circumstances, but they usually need a mentor to help them up out of their situation. Someone who nurtured them and gave them the confidence to try and better themselves.
So if we see God as our loving Father who wants the best for us, no matter what our circumstances, our parenting, or our history, we have God and his son as our mentors who will guide us through the trials of this life and bring us out the other side....all the better for their training and nurturing.
This life is not the one God chose for us...it is the one chosen by our first human father, Adam. He sold us into a situation that no one but God could get us out of.
As the Bible tells it...an enemy of God tempted Adam to disobey a simple but important command, and unleashed the hounds of disaster to plague the world ever since. Suffering and death have been man's lot as a result. God shows us the way out of that situation.
Those who know the Creator and love him, see what is happening in the world and are confident about its outcome.....the end of this present system of things is not going to be a picnic, but God assures us that he will see us through it and we will come out the other side, chastened and grateful that we did not abandon our God or ignore his laws. He has provided his word and counsel for all people. This is a judgment period because God has had the news about his kingdom broadcast in all nations to people of all languages and faiths, giving them the same opportunity to come to know him. (Matthew 24:14) As a reader of hearts he knows those who respond to the "good news" and those who ignore it.
God sent his son to die for you and me and all who want to live in his new world. All we have to do is seek him with a complete heart....one that is not enslaved to false beliefs and traditions. God has always had a people who have served his interests here on earth. He does not forget the righteous, and promises to reward them....but the wicked will have earned the death penalty by their own choices.
That is how I understand the Bible's message...
No but Romans 12:5 seems to though not individually for each person. The spirit rests in the church as people come and go. Its the apostle Paul who explains that the church is one body. Jesus explains that to follow him requires denying the self, countering the concept of individual resurrections. The beliefs of modern Christians are I think very selfish, and that is why this strange question comes up in the OP. "Will I be raised as a spirit? Will I be raised with a body? Will I have a spiritual body? Will I see my husband and children again?"
Thief
Rogue Theologian
If God is God...….He lived BEFORE He created flesh
He formed flesh to in turn form unique spirit
no point in creating Man.....only to have him crumble into the dust he was made of
moorea944
Well-Known Member
[No pointing in creating Man... only to have him crumble into the dust he was made of]
But isnt that exactly what the bible is saying? If you eat of the tree you die? Did God say to Adam & Eve, you'll die but you still live on.... He didnt. I've never understand why people have to believe in an afterlife. Are you afraid of death? Or maybe you dont want to accept that when your dead, that's it, you cease to exist.
God tells us that if you fear him, you dont fear death. Why's that? Because you would believe in the resurrection. And that's why scripture tells us that, dont fear what man can do to you, God has the last say on who permanently dies. And that's because of resurrection. People will be raise, but not all and everyone will.
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PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
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