Do you really have a choice?

[Nakosis]

I believe that God knows everything that will ever happen to everyone throughout their lives and all that is written on the Tablet of Fate.

I believe that some things that happen to us in this life are predestined (fated) by God, and we have no control over these things.

However, I believe that most of what happens in our lives is chosen by us and then acted upon. God knows what those choices will be because God has perfect foreknowledge, but God’s foreknowledge has no bearing upon what we choose to do, nor does it limit our choices in any way.

I believe that our choices are determined by many factors that we have no control over, so I think that free will is very limited.

Here is what I believe about free will:
I do not believe that humans are just a function of electrical impulses in our brains. I believe we are sentient beings who have a will, and we make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances - everything that goes into making us the person we are. All of these factors are the reasons why we choose one thing or another at any point in time.

How free our choices vary with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity, but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have been thinking a lot about this lately because I don’t really think I have much choice concerning how I am living my life. More on this later.
I want to know if others think about this. Are there things that you want to do but feel you cannot do? In other words, do you think you could be making other choices?

Ok, just for the sake of argument, if we took the omniscience of God out of the picture for a second, is free will possible?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Even if they "follow their destiny", that is not free will.

No .. it's just that "you do not realize it" .. and that is because of the human perception of
'time' .

You are putting the cart before the horse .. the decision comes first, and that which is known comes after.

 

[Ajax]

No .. it's just that "you do not realize it" .. and that is because of the human perception of
'time' .

You are putting the cart before the horse .. the decision comes first, and that which is known comes after.

I beg to differ. Whether you call it destiny, or an omniscient God, people can not change whatever is written or known. Theists claim that God can see simultaneously past, present and future and know all our actions. If he doesn't, then he is simply not omniscient and theists claim is a fairy tale.

That is why I asked you "Can you do something tomorrow that the omniscient God already knows from today (or even before the world began as) what you will do? Or will He change his mind because you supposedly have free will?"
You didn't answer...

The horse is God who knows all along what you will do, you are the cart that follows.

 

[Trailblazer]

1) If an omniscient God exists, who is out of time and therefore has foreknowledge of everything that will happen, people can not have free will. They are simply robots who imagine they have free will, but are bound to follow God's foreknowledge, even if they do not realize it.

Why do you think we are bound by God's foreknowledge and thus cannot have free will?

Since God is all-knowing, whatever we choose is what God knows we will choose, but God's knowledge of what we will choose has no bearing upon what we will choose. We will choose what we want to choose. Free will has many constraints such as ability and opportunity, so we cannot always choose what we would like to choose, but God's knowledge is not what prevents us from choosing.

If we choose a, God will have always known we were going to choose a.
If we choose b, God will have always known we were going to choose b.
If we choose c, God will have always known we were going to choose c.

What we will choose is identical with what God knows we will choose ONLY because God knows we will choose it, but God's knowledge puts no constraints on our ability to choose from the options that are available to us.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok, just for the sake of argument, if we took the omniscience of God out of the picture for a second, is free will possible?

We do not need to take the omniscience of God out of the picture in order for humans to have free will because God's foreknowledge of what we will choose has absolutely no bearing upon our ability to choose what we want to choose.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

 

[Ajax]

Why do you think we are bound by God's foreknowledge and thus cannot have free will?

Since God is all-knowing, whatever we choose is what God knows we will choose, but God's knowledge of what we will choose has no bearing upon what we will choose. We will choose what we want to choose. Free will has many constraints such as ability and opportunity, so we cannot always choose what we would like to choose, but God's knowledge is not what prevents us from choosing.

If we choose a, God will have always known we were going to choose a.
If we choose b, God will have always known we were going to choose b.
If we choose c, God will have always known we were going to choose c.

What we will choose is identical with what God knows we will choose ONLY because God knows we will choose it, but God's knowledge puts no constraints on our ability to choose from the options that are available to us.

My friend, for me this is a very convenient apologetic fallacy to justify both omniscience and free will.

Let me give you an example. Suppose for argument's sake that a time machine is invented (it doesn't matter if such machine can not exist) and you are sent one week ahead. You see a friend of yours say Jane, in a clothes' shop at 2.45 exactly buying a pink floral dress. Is there the slightest possibility that Jane, will not buy the same floral dress at exactly the same time next week?

Well, according to Christian theology, if God is omniscient and can see simultaneously past, present and future, God is a "very advanced time machine" and you cannot change what he has seen and knows since the beginning of time.

Luke 12:7 "Yes, God even knows how many hairs you have on your head." Even if you pull one out, I may add.

 

[Nakosis]

We do not need to take the omniscience of God out of the picture in order for humans to have free will because God's foreknowledge of what we will choose has absolutely no bearing upon our ability to choose what we want to choose.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

I'm just trying to understand free will from your point of view first.

Then understand why people think God being omniscient throws a monkey wench into this.
I understand Bahá’u’lláh says it should not be regarded as such, but people do, so why do they?
Ok, God is not causal in man's choices but I don't think that is the problem here.

 

[Trailblazer]

if God is omniscient and can see simultaneously past, present and future, God is a "very advanced time machine" and you cannot change what he has seen and knows since the beginning of time.

I already explained that.
We will do what God knows we will do, but not because God knows what we will do. We will do what God knows we will do because we chose to do it.

What God knows has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING upon our ability to choose what we want to do. Whatever we choose will be what God knew we would choose because God is all-knowing.

By choosing between a or b or c, we are not changing what God has seen and knows since the beginning of time. We are doing what God has seen and knows since the beginning of time.

*********************
In the context of linear time on earth, whatever is not predestined by God is contingent upon our choices. Yet in the spiritual realm where God exists, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable such that it is possible to see the end in the beginning.

God, being omniscient, knows and foresees all, but, in the context of time and space we live in, we still are subject to random and contingent elements, so we have free will and the ability to alter the course of certain events in time. Whatever we end up doing will be what God has always known we would do, what is written on the Tablet of Fate.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm just trying to understand free will from your point of view first.

My point of view:
I do not believe that humans are just a function of electrical impulses in our brains. I believe that humans have a soul that operates through the brain and mind while we are alive in a physical body, and the soul is the person, our personality which is what causes us to make choices.

I believe we have a will and we make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances - everything that goes into making us the person we are. All of these factors are the reasons why we choose one thing or another at any point in time.

How free our choices vary with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything.

Then understand why people think God being omniscient throws a monkey wench into this.
I understand Bahá’u’lláh says it should not be regarded as such, but people do, so why do they?
Ok, God is not causal in man's choices but I don't think that is the problem here.

Do you understand why God is not causal in man's choices and why God's knowledge does not limit man's choices?

If you believe what most nonbelievers believe then we are simply programmed robots doing what God knows we will do and we have no free will.
If you understand that God does not cause us to do anything just by knowing we will do it then you will get the door prize for being the first nonbeliever who ever understood this.

 

[Ajax]

I already explained that.
We will do what God knows we will do, but not because God knows what we will do. We will do what God knows we will do because we chose to do it.

What God knows has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING upon our ability to choose what we want to do. Whatever we choose will be what God knew we would choose because God is all-knowing.

By choosing between a or b or c, we are not changing what God has seen and knows since the beginning of time. We are doing what God has seen and knows since the beginning of time.

*********************
In the context of linear time on earth, whatever is not predestined by God is contingent upon our choices. Yet in the spiritual realm where God exists, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable such that it is possible to see the end in the beginning.

God, being omniscient, knows and foresees all, but, in the context of time and space we live in, we still are subject to random and contingent elements, so we have free will and the ability to alter the course of certain events in time. Whatever we end up doing will be what God has always known we would do, what is written on the Tablet of Fate.

Sure you explained, but it can not possibly work like this. Religions try to fool people telling them they have a free will and whatever they choose -, by a very strange coincidence - God had chosen that too!!!! Wow, trillions of miracles every single moment !!!

You didn't answer though on the question I asked you. Could your hypothetical friend Jane have done anything different than what you saw her doing in the future? This is the heart of the matter.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Theists claim that God can see simultaneously past, present and future and know all our actions..

That is correct..
..but before making instinctive knee-jerk reactions, you should ponder on how that can be?

i.e. If G-d is the author of 'time', what does that say about its nature?

That is why I asked you "Can you do something tomorrow that the omniscient God already knows from today (or even before the world began as) what you will do? Or will He change his mind because you supposedly have free will?"

That makes no sense .. change His mind .. when?
There is no 'when' .. there is no 'before' .. there is no 'after', from G-d's perspective.

The horse is God who knows all along what you will do, you are the cart that follows.

G-d does not "know what you will do" .. there is no past and future tense, from G-d's perspective.
..so you say that it is 'our destiny' that causes our decisions .. but that is incorrect .. it is our choices.

It is because of our perception of time, that you are convinced otherwise.

 

[Ajax]

That is correct..
..but before making instinctive knee-jerk reactions, you should ponder on how that can be?

i.e. If G-d is the author of 'time', what does that say about its nature?


That makes no sense .. change His mind .. when?
There is no 'when' .. there is no 'before' .. there is no 'after', from G-d's perspective.


G-d does not "know what you will do" .. there is no past and future tense, from G-d's perspective.
..so you say that it is 'our destiny' that causes our decisions .. but that is incorrect .. it is our choices.

It is because of our perception of time, that you are convinced otherwise.

You accepted that God can see simultaneously past, present and future and knows all our actions.. That means that God knows all our past, present and future actions and it's the main point in our discussion. Thank you for admitting it.
But then you changed it...God "does not know what you will do"... Are you playing with words?

Let's go to the second point. You mentioned first about destiny, not me.

People are only bound to "follow their destiny", because G-d knows what they will choose of
their own free-will

Nothing to do with our perception of time. Either God knows all along of our future actions, or he doesn't. As simple as that.
The if God is the author of "time" is nothing more than a pure assumption.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You accepted that God can see simultaneously past, present and future and knows all our actions.. That means that God knows all our past, present and future actions and it's the main point in our discussion..

Yes .. but you want that to imply that it changes the order of things happening .. it doesn't.

Nothing to do with our perception of time..

Then why do you say "if G-d knows what we will do?"
'will do' is future tense. That is VERY MUCH about perception of time.

Either God knows all along of our future actions, or he doesn't..

'all along' .. 'future actions' .. and you say that the perception of time is not involved???

The if God is the author of "time" is nothing more than a pure assumption.

That is another issue.
If you don't believe that G-d exists, who is not subject to time, then the issue of 'divine destiny' does not arise.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Nothing to do with our perception of time. Either God knows all along of our future actions, or he doesn't. As simple as that.

From our perspective, G-d knows "what will happen".
"what will happen" is only a perception. G-d does not share that perception.
From our perception, "what will happen" has "not happened yet" .. it is not until we make our decisions
and act on them that it HAS.

It is just that G-d sees all this, and discussing G-d's knowledge as if G-d was part of the universe is
misleading .. not only misleading, but it is fallacious to say "we have no choice" when we do!

 

[Ajax]

Yes .. but you want that to imply that it changes the order of things happening .. it doesn't.

I don't imply anything. I stick by your acceptance that God can see simultaneously past, present and future and knows all our actions.

Then why do you say "if G-d knows what we will do?"
'will do' is future tense. That is VERY MUCH about perception of time.

'all along' .. 'future actions' .. and you say that the perception of time is not involved???

Are you playing with words? Again, you accepted that God can see simultaneously past, present and future and knows all our actions.
If the future is known to God and he knows our actions, then our future actions are also known to him, and you have the illusion that you have free will. In fact scientists have proven 40 years ago that our so called free will is an illusion, from the scientific point of view.

That is another issue.
If you don't believe that G-d exists, who is not subject to time, then the issue of 'divine destiny' does not arise.

I didn't say that God doesn't exist. I am agnostic. But to say that you know that God is not subject to time, is an assumption, based on the other assumption that God is eternal, originated from primitive people in the OT. Theists like you claim that God knows our future and all our actions. Well. in this case either we must act as he always knows, or he is not omniscient. All other arguments are simply excuses.

 

[Ajax]

From our perspective, G-d knows "what will happen".
"what will happen" is only a perception. G-d does not share that perception.
From our perception, "what will happen" has "not happened yet" .. it is not until we make our decisions
and act on them that it HAS.

It is just that G-d sees all this, and discussing G-d's knowledge as if G-d was part of the universe is
misleading .. not only misleading, but it is fallacious to say "we have no choice" when we do!

I gave a theoretical example to our friend Trailblazer earlier and I will repeat it for you...
Suppose for argument's sake that a time machine is invented (it doesn't matter if such machine can not exist) and you are sent one week ahead. You see a friend of yours say Jane, in a clothes' shop at 2.45 exactly buying a pink floral dress. Is there the slightest possibility -despite the many choices she has - that Jane, will not buy the same floral dress at exactly the same time from the same shop, next week?
God sees Jane too, according to theology.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If the future is known to God and he knows our actions, then our future actions are also known to him, and you have the illusion that you have free will. In fact scientists have proven 40 years ago that our so called free will is an illusion, from the scientific point of view..

They've done no such thing .. some might have hypothesized..

Well. in this case either we must act as he always knows, or he is not omniscient..

OF COURSE, we will act as G-d knows .. but you don't seem to realize that that does NOT mean
that our choices are not our own.

What you are in effect saying, is that G-d is 'pulling our puppet strings', because He knows.
Why do you think that .. just stating it must be so, is not a reason

As I say, it is because our perception of time confuses you .. you think that if THE FUTURE is known,
then your instincts tell you our choice is not free.
Your instinct would be wrong! It is our choice that determines the future (amongst other things).

 

[muhammad_isa]

Suppose for argument's sake that a time machine is invented (it doesn't matter if such machine can not exist) and you are sent one week ahead. You see a friend of yours say Jane, in a clothes' shop at 2.45 exactly buying a pink floral dress. Is there the slightest possibility -despite the many choices she has - that Jane, will not buy the same floral dress at exactly the same time from the same shop, next week?
God sees Jane too, according to theology.

What is the point you are trying to make? There is no such THING as an "illusion of free-will".
Either we have it , or we don't.

Your example is hypothetical. You are making a conditional statement. You are suggesting that Jane buys a pink floral dress ..and then say she has no other choice. False !

 

[Ajax]

They've done no such thing .. some might have hypothesized..

It all started in the 80's with Benjamin Libet - Wikipedia and following countless experiments, almost every neuroscientist now declares free will an illusion.
Watch this interesting and amusing scientific discussion especially in 8:50..."We can predict up to 10 seconds before you even have the conscious inclination of your intention which way you are going to go, left or right, cheese or no cheese..."

 

[Ajax]

OF COURSE, we will act as G-d knows .. but you don't seem to realize that that does NOT mean
that our choices are not our own.

We will act as God knows, but it is our choice and free will? You just demolished the definition of free will..
Free will is defined as being the capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action. If we will act as God knows, as you admitted, we have one course of action only!!!

What is the point you are trying to make? There is no such THING as an "illusion of free-will".
Either we have it , or we don't.

Your example is hypothetical. You are making a conditional statement. You are suggesting that Jane buys a pink floral dress ..and then say she has no other choice. False !

I'm not going to continue discussing with someone who tries hard to pretend that he can not understand standard logic and dare not replying to simple questions from examples I gave, pretending it is false because the example is hypothetical Yes it is, I stated that from the beginning... exactly like the timeless God, his omniscience and the whole religion is hypothetical. But being hypothetical does not invalidate my question.
Good luck with your thoughts.