Do you really have a choice?

[Truthseeker]

I do not believe that humans are just a function of electrical impulses in our brains. I believe we are sentient beings who have a will, and we make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances - everything that goes into making us the person we are. All of these factors are the reasons why we choose one thing or another at any point in time.

How free our choices vary with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity, but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have been thinking a lot about this lately because I don’t really think I have much choice concerning how I am living my life. More on this later.
I want to know if others think about this. Are there things that you want to do but feel you cannot do? In other words, do you think you could be making other choices?

I'm with you in my belief based as you know on the Baha'i Writings and also knowledge of how hard it is to change our behavior based on experience, and the Baha'i Writings have something to say about how hard it is to change yourself also. See this:

It is extremely difficult to teach the individual and refine his character once puberty is passed. By then, as experience hath shown, even if every effort be exerted to modify some tendency of his, it all availeth nothing. He may, perhaps, improve somewhat today; but let a few days pass and he forgetteth, and turneth backward to his habitual condition and accustomed ways. Therefore it is in early childhood that a firm foundation must be laid. While the branch is green and tender it can easily be made straight.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 137)

This concentrates on a person from the outside changing a kid's behavior, but the same applies I know when a person on his own initiative tries to change his own behavior.

You could say that animals have volition also, because after after all they act, and you say that without volition we could do nothing. However as a belief from my faith they have no free will. This is not based on any empirical data. Making a decision in itself doesn't mean to me that the decision was a result of free will. At one time, and that recently, I held the belief that people's souls have some degree of free will in the afterlife after death of the body, but I've changed my opinion on that. Souls may pray for the their own advancement in the afterlife, but that doesn't imply that this decision was a result of free will. Rather, as I see free will as a choice between our animal characteristics and our spiritual nature, and as the physical doesn't exist in the next world, what real choice is there in the next world? Their decision to pray for their own advancement is deterministic in my belief.

I know your circumstances in this life pretty well, and I agree you have little control over how you living your life now.

I feel more free than you do in my circumstances in making different choices, but it is still hard for me to do so. I am trying to bring myself to account each day as Arabic Hidden word #31 prescribes, and and change my behavior and my efforts have been inconsistent at best. It didn't help that this effort was disrupted by my stay in the hospital for Covid.

 

[Truthseeker]

Could I be making other choices? I doubt it.

Well, judging from your choices here, you make good choices.

 

[JustGeorge]

Well, judging from your choices here, you make good choices.

Sometimes.

I make good choices here because folks here don't tempt me with donuts, and I don't have any dishes to keep up on.

 

[Trailblazer]

At one time, and that recently, I held the belief that people's souls have some degree of free will in the afterlife after death of the body, but I've changed my opinion on that. Souls may pray for the their own advancement in the afterlife, but that doesn't imply that this decision was a result of free will. Rather, as I see free will as a choice between our animal characteristics and our spiritual nature, and as the physical doesn't exist in the next world, what real choice is there in the next world?

Do Baha'is ever bother to think, or do they only follow dogma? I am not directing this at you personally, it is just a general statement.

What does it mean to say we have free will? It is not only in reference to moral choices, choosing between our animal characteristics and our spiritual nature. How can we advance in the spiritual world without a will. of our own Do we just move according to how God wills?

We both know this is coming from Abdu'l-Baha, that we can only advance by the prayers of others and good works done in our name.
This makes no sense to me so I cannot believe it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know your circumstances in this life pretty well, and I agree you have little control over how you living your life now.

Thanks for understanding that. That is also how I feel. I don't like it but that's the way it is.
I started this thread with the intention of discussing this but I never got around to it. Maybe later.

I said in the OP:
I have been thinking a lot about this lately because I don’t really think I have much choice concerning how I am living my life. More on this later.

 

[Truthseeker]

Do Baha'is ever bother to think, or do they only follow dogma? I am not directing this at you personally, it is just a general statement.

What does it mean to say we have free will? It is not only in reference to moral choices, choosing between our animal characteristics and our spiritual nature. How can we advance in the spiritual world without a will. of our own Do we just move according to how God wills?

We both know this is coming from Abdu'l-Baha, that we can only advance by the prayers of others and good works done in our name.
This makes no sense to me so I cannot believe it.

We'll find out soon enough what our situation will be in the next world. Not really soon, God forbid, but definitely within a few decades.

If Baha'u'llah said the same thing, you would tend to have stronger predisposition to believe it, I believe. i'm not saying anything that you don't already know how I see it. You do have trouble with Baha'u'llah says sometimes also.

 

[Trailblazer]

We'll find out soon enough what our situation will be in the next world. Not really soon, God forbid, but definitely within a few decades.

The sooner the better, were it not for the cats. The cats are presently my only reason for wanting to stick around here.
There is nothing else left for me here.

“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200

I agree with these statements:
The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions.

Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering.

I disagree with this:
It is ignorance that binds man to it,

It is not ignorance that binds man to it, it is being born into this world that binds man to it.

If Baha'u'llah said the same thing, you would tend to have stronger predisposition to believe it,

Yes I would.

I believe. i'm not saying anything that you don't already know how I see it. You do have trouble with Baha'u'llah says sometimes also.

I do have trouble with some things Baha'u'llah says, like God is all-loving, but the difference is that I know I am wrong, whereas I don't know I am wrong when I disagree with Abdu'l-Baha.

 

[Truthseeker]

The sooner the better, were it not for the cats. The cats are presently my only reason for wanting to stick around here.
There is nothing else left for me here.

“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200

I agree with these statements:
The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions.

Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering.

I disagree with this:
It is ignorance that binds man to it,

It is not ignorance that binds man to it, it is being born into this world that binds man to it.

When I stop to think about, I have difficulty believing that "no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner." I feel like I'm in a comfortable position, for now. It seems like an exaggeration to say "If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow". That's not my experience. I think that this was Abdu'l-Baha's way to say something so that the widow of this man who apparently committed suicide would feel that what her husband did was acceptable.

What I think he means by "ignorance that binds man to it", is that many people try to find true joy from this world, whereas true joy comes from the realm of the spirit.

"If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow" means perhaps in this light the physical world has very little of spiritual joy in it. I feel like I'm straining my reason here saying this, though.

 

[Trailblazer]

When I stop to think about, I have difficulty believing that "no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner."

Remember when I used to tell you I don't believe that because many people find comfort in this world? I still believe that.

I feel like I'm in a comfortable position, for now.

For now, and for who knows how long. You are one of the lucky ones, at least so far.

It seems like an exaggeration to say "If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow". That's not my experience.

I remember that I used to tell you that was an exaggeration, but lately I have been thinking about that quote and this has been MY experience, one sweet cup and a hundred bitter cups to follow. However, I don't think it is true for most people, as most people have mostly sweet cups and fewer bitter ones.

I think that this was Abdu'l-Baha's way to say something so that the widow of this man who apparently committed suicide would feel that what her husband did was acceptable.

Yes, I agree.

What I think he means by "ignorance that binds man to it", is that many people try to find true joy from this world, whereas true joy comes from the realm of the spirit.

Yes, I know that is what he meant and I agree. The problem is that we have to LIVE in this world for now, not in the realm if spirit.

"If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow" means perhaps in this light the physical world has very little of spiritual joy in it. I feel like I'm straining my reason here saying this, though.

I agree that the physical world has very little of spiritual joy in it but I don't think that is what he was trying to say.

 

[Truthseeker]

The sooner the better, were it not for the cats. The cats are presently my only reason for wanting to stick around here.
There is nothing else left for me here.

I guess besides the cats you have the purpose of teaching, and some friends here, though you can't interact with them except in posts in the forum. It's different for me, I have a spouse physically in my home, and I have few friends that I mostly interact with through Zoom, which how I like it. I interact and make friends more easily through learning together, not in idle chit-chat. I heard Temple Grandin, a famous autistic woman say the same thing in a video. A fellow autistic person expressing my experience gives me some comfort.

My, how my thoughts wander.

 

[Trailblazer]

I guess besides the cats you have the purpose of teaching, and some friends here, though you can't interact with them except in posts in the forum. It's different for me, I have a spouse physically in my home, and I have few friends that I mostly interact with through Zoom, which how I like it. I interact and make friends more easily through learning together, not in idle chit-chat. I heard Temple Grandin, a famous autistic woman say the same thing in a video. A fellow autistic person expressing my experience gives me some comfort.

My, how my thoughts wander.

Yes, my life is very different from yours, for those reasons. You have an actual interest in the Faith for yourself and like learning about it but I don't.
I don't like chit-chat but even that is better than studying the Writings in a group. I have absolutely no interest in study groups, I never did.

You also have other other things you like to learn about. I spent the better part of my adulthood in colleges amassing various degrees, and I want something else in my life besides books and learning. I'd like to go places and see things, but I cannot do that alone. Religion is boring to me and I don't care for history either. I used to be interested in psychology but not as much anymore. You also have sports that you enjoy, so there is another thing. I have a few TV programs I like but it is not a passion like you and football.

I might have a purpose in teaching the Faith, but that is not for myself. Is it selfish for me to want 'something' for myself?

All I have are the cats and that is a double-edged sword because cats don't live forever. If I did not care about them so much and abandoning them I'd rather die before one more cats dies, but I care too much about them to even think that way.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I spent the better part of my adulthood in colleges amassing various degrees, and I want something else in my life besides books and learning. I'd like to go places and see things, but I cannot do that alone. Religion is boring to me and I don't care for history either. I used to be interested in psychology but not as much anymore. You also have sports that you enjoy, so there is another thing. I have a few TV programs I like but it is not a passion like you and football..

I'm in a similar position .. getting older and live alone .. I suffer from depression.
I hope you are seeking treatment for your depression.

Covid has accelerated an overall decrease in people's mental health .. along with current
world events, it isn't easy to be optimistic for the future.
..but we must try to be .. you've studied psychology .. you know the importance of positive thinking.

Treatments are not confined to anti-depressants alone .. there is counciling, and if we get on well
with the councilor, can make a significant difference .. once a week could help.

..and G-d is the best of helpers .. He knows that it is not easy .. He is full of pity for the believers.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm in a similar position .. getting older and live alone .. I suffer from depression.
I hope you are seeking treatment for your depression.

I don't have major depression. I have dysthymia, which is low grade depression, which I have had all of my life.
There is no treatment for that, it is partly hereditary and partly from difficult childhood and adult experiences.

Anxiety is a bigger problem for me than depression.
I see a counselor but for my anxiety, although she thinks I am doing so much better so I only see her once a month now.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't have major depression..

I'm glad to hear it .. because it is very debilitating.

 

[idea]

Knowing and determining are separate - I can know what will be on TV without it being my will.

Who created it - that's the real question - if we are self-created it's our will. If God created, it's all God's fault haha

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I know the usual answer from atheists - God is omnipotent God can do x so God should do x.
That is illogical. According to that line of reasoning humans can prevent death and destruction by choosing to do so so humans should prevent death and destruction. Why should God do what humans can do?

I have no idea. But preventing death and destruction would be the moral thing to do.

"God has no reason not to be immoral" does not imply "God is moral."

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no idea. But preventing death and destruction would be the moral thing to do.

Preventing death is impossible because humans are mortal thus we will all die eventually.
Forestalling death is a job for doctors.
Preventing destruction is a job for humans to do.

"God has no reason not to be immoral" does not imply "God is moral."

God is not subject to morality because God is not a human. Only humans can be moral or immoral.

Morality is the belief that some behaviour is right and acceptable and that other behaviour is wrong. ... A morality is a system of principles and values concerning people's behaviour, which is generally accepted by a society or by a particular group of people.
Morality definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

 

[Ajax]

There are two ways for discussing free will, one being based on the theistic view and another based on the scientific.

1) If an omniscient God exists, who is out of time and therefore has foreknowledge of everything that will happen, people can not have free will. They are simply robots who imagine they have free will, but are bound to follow God's foreknowledge, even if they do not realize it.

2) In the scientific view again, the general consensus of neuroscientists based on various experiments is that our brain takes the decisions for us in 250-1000 ms before we are conscious of having decided to act. Most neuroscientists believe that our behavior is the result of two factors over which we have no influence, so we have no free will. They are the genetic one, because we do not choose our parents, and the social one, which concerns the environment that surrounds us. For example, if someone is found guilty of murder and he is also found to be insane, he/she is not going to be jailed, because his/her behavior originated due to some malfunction of his /her brain. Or in the realm of romantic love there is no free will. Some may claim to want to get rid of their love, but ultimately fail, even going so far as to commit suicide..

On both cases free will is essential only because of how we want to see ourselves, fueling the satisfaction of achievement, or the shame of failing to do the right thing.

 

[muhammad_isa]

They are simply robots who imagine they have free will, but are bound to follow God's foreknowledge, even if they do not realize it.

No, sorry .. you are wrong .. "even if you do not realize it".

People are only bound to "follow their destiny", because G-d knows what they will choose of
their own free-will .. whereas you are saying they are merely following something "already chosen for them"..
..which is false.

 

[Ajax]

No, sorry .. you are wrong .. "even if you do not realize it".

People are only bound to "follow their destiny", because G-d knows what they will choose of
their own free-will .. whereas you are saying they are merely following something "already chosen for them"..
..which is false.

Hahaha...Can you do something tomorrow that God already knows from today (or even before the world began) what you will do? Or will He change his mind because you supposedly have free will?
Free will is the capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action. Even if they "follow their destiny", that is not free will.