1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do you believe that Jesus was born on December 25th?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Reverend Rick, Dec 8, 2007.

  1. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    20,926
    Ratings:
    +3,196
    What would you like Jay?

    Are you disputing that the winter solstice on Dec. 21st is not the Pagan Sun God's birthday? The days do get longer after that.

    Or are you in doubt that stain glass is eye candy for the Sun worshipers and enticed them into Christian churches?

    Why is it that people want to click on something and that magically makes it a fact?

    Or, folks do click on it and people dispute the source.

    Do you see how circular that is?

    Or, are you saying I'm full of it and just made this up?

    Coptic Christian Paintings (Including Icons)
     
  2. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    20,926
    Ratings:
    +3,196
  3. gnomon

    gnomon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2005
    Messages:
    9,313
    Ratings:
    +1,672
    Religion:
    atheist
    no...
     
  4. logician

    logician Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Ratings:
    +379
  5. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    The Christians are not going up to the pagans and saying, "Hey, here's what we believe--take it or leave it." They are being vague about Christianity by making it resemble paganism as much as possible in order to entice the pagans over to their side. A lot of pagans who were "converted" to Christianity were never really converted at all--they continued to practice all of their old traditions, just filling the names of Christian gods and saints into the blanks. Take St. Brighid of Ireland, for example. Brighid was a Celtic goddess, whose name the Christians stole and applied to a saint in order to say to the pagans, "See, you can worship Brighid and still be a Christian, because Brighid supports Christianity. You just have to call her a saint now, ok?"
     
  6. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    36,443
    Ratings:
    +5,288
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    someone correct me if I'm wrong:
    I don't believe there was a "December 25" at the time Jesus was born, since a different calendar was being used then.
     
  7. angellous_evangellous

    Ratings:
    +0
    :biglaugh:
     
  8. astarath

    astarath Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2007
    Messages:
    1,825
    Ratings:
    +84
    Ebionites celebrate his birth on the 7th of January which is in fact the date it was celebrated until the rule of Constantine when the date was change to come in accordance with his amalgamation of faiths. Sol Invictus was the faith of Constantine and the birth of it's central figure (The SUN) occurs on the 25th. After his declaration at the Nicene Council for a single kind of Christianity to exist this newly accepted date became his birth. Proof of this is found in the Greek Orthodox churches that to this day worship Christ's birth on Jan 7.
     
  9. logician

    logician Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Ratings:
    +379
    There's a lot of things about the story of the supposed Jesus's birth that just plain ain't true.
     
  10. astarath

    astarath Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2007
    Messages:
    1,825
    Ratings:
    +84

    Deep dig further, expound a little makes debate more valued
     
  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    40,201
    Ratings:
    +14,283
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Stop. You're embarrassing yourself ... :rolleyes:
     
  12. astarath

    astarath Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2007
    Messages:
    1,825
    Ratings:
    +84
    I would disagree, however feel free to move forward and actually explain yourself!
     
  13. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    6,435
    Ratings:
    +1,860
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    A couple of things tell me that the birth of Jesus was probably not in December.. Shepherds generally had their flocks in the open fields at night would do this in the warmer months..and a census would probably not be held in the dead of winter. If ever the mystery of the star of Bethlehem is resolved?! It could tell us more..A conjunction of Venus and Jupiter in the Constellation of Leo could be well be the star referred to..See the article:

    SPACE.com -- Spacewatch Friday - Star of Bethlehem: Going Back in Time to Examine Its Origins

    - Art
     
  14. Don Penguinoini

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2007
    Messages:
    9,247
    Ratings:
    +729
    Religion:
    Hindu Atheist
    Well why not? WHat if we celebrated it on the 24th? Then he would be born the 24th. Is or isn't jesus was born. The ackowledging of that is enough, right?
     
  15. logician

    logician Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Ratings:
    +379
    "Mark: This gospel was written by an unknown author circa 70 CE. He apparently knew nothing about miraculous events associated with Jesus' birth, and thus did not record any in his writings. If he were aware of them, he certainly would have mentioned them.

    [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Matthew: This was written by another unknown author, probably a Jew who lived remote from Palestine. He wrote the Gospel circa 80 CE, presumably after some of the early Christian movements had invented miraculous traditions associated with Jesus' birth. Most of the elements associated with this myth appear to have never happened: [/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Matthew 1:1: The author traces Jesus' genealogy from Abraham. He lists Jacob as being Jesus' grandfather. This conflicts with Luke, who lists Eli. Jesus' line is traced through Solomon, son of David. Luke traces the Messianic line through Nathan, son of David. The author lists 28 generations between David and Jesus; Luke says it was 41.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Matthew 1:18: The virgin conception of Jesus by Mary is an obvious myth. The Gospel of Q does not mention it. St. Paul not only does not mention it, but implies that Jesus' birth was normal. The author of the Gospel probably invented the virgin birth so that the story of Jesus' could compete with the magical conception of many heroes and gods in surrounding Pagan religions: e.g. Horus (circa 1550 BCE), Zoroaster (1000 - 1500 BCE?), Krishna (circa 1200 BCE), Indra (circa 750 BCE), Buddha (circa 600 BCE), Mithra (circa 500 BCE), Quirrnus (circa 550 BCE), Attis (circa 200 BCE), Adonis (born in Bethlehem many centuries before Jesus).[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Matthew 1:22: The author cites a passage in an ancient Greek translation of Isaiah. The translation was an error: it substituted "virgin" for "young woman." Matthew and Luke probably felt compelled to go along with the expectation that Jesus' mother was a virgin.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Matthew 2:1: The story of the Magi coming to Palestine to give homage to the King of the Jews appears to have been freely adapted from the story of Mithra's birth. He was mythical Persian savior, also allegedly born of a virgin on DEC-25, who was worshiped many centuries before Jesus' birth[/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Matthew 2:7: Herod inquired as to the exact time that the star appeared. According to Matthew 2:16, this was to learn exactly when Jesus was born, so that he could have all of the male children of a suitable age in the Bethlehem area murdered. Since he later ordered all of the children under 2 years of age slaughtered, Jesus must have been living with his parents in Bethlehem for many months by the time that the Magi arrived - perhaps at least a year. If Jesus had been just born, then Herod would have ordered only newborn infants killed. This conflicts with Luke 2:39 which states that when Mary was ritually purified 40 days after the birth, that the family returned to Nazareth immediately afterwards.[/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Matthew 2:9: The story element which has the Magi following a star is obvious mythical. Any star or super-nova or comet or alignment of planets would obviously be tens or hundreds of millions of miles away from earth. In order to serve as a marker for the house in Bethlehem where Jesus was, it would have to be only a few hundred feet above the town.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Matthew 2:11: The author presents Joseph and Mary as being residents of Bethlehem, living in a house. This conflicts with Luke's account which describes Jesus' parents as residents of Nazareth and only temporary visitors to Bethlehem[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Matthew 2:13: The author describes the family fleeing to Egypt. No record of this is seen in Luke. It was apparently added to the gospel in order to match the prophecy in Hosea 11:1 that the Messiah must come out of Egypt.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Matthew 2:16: Herod's extermination order is certainly a myth, as described above.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Matthew 2:23: Joseph and Mary bypassed Judea and settled in Nazareth. The prophecy that "He will be called a Nazarene" does not exist in the Hebrew Scriptures.[/FONT]
    [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Luke: This gospel was written by an unknown author circa 90 CE. He was probably the only writer in the Christian Scriptures who was not born a Jew. Originally, it was believed that the author of Luke and Acts was a physician. But recent analysis of the text indicates that his medical knowledge was typical of any educated person of his era. The Christmas story that we see portrayed in plays and pageants is most often taken from this gospel. Matthew's mention of the Magi is then tacked onto the end. Some suspicious elements from Luke's birth story are: [/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Luke 3:38: As noted above, Luke's genealogy cannot be reconciled with Matthew's.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Luke 1:26: The description of the virgin conception is, as described above, an attempt to make a mistranslated prophecy from the Hebrew Scriptures come true. Alternatively the author might have incorporated a birth tradition invented by his religious group in order to make Jesus appear to be a great hero or god, like those of the surrounding religions in the Mediterranean.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Luke 2:1: The census never happened. [/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Luke 2:2: Even if a census did occur at the time of Jesus' birth, the people would not have been required to return to their ancestral home. That would be a totally impractical arrangement. If it happened this way, all work throughout the Roman Empire would stop. Some people would have had to travel for months to return to their ancestral home. The transportation infrastructure could not possibly have handled the flood of travelers.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Luke 2:5: Joseph would not have taken Mary with him, even if he had to go to Bethlehem to register. Only men were enumerated or taxed, so there was no necessity for her to accompany Joseph. Mary's pregnancy was in its 9th month at the time. She would not have been in a condition to travel.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Luke 2:8: The author seems to have invented the shepherds; the latter do not appear in Matthew.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Luke 2:39: The author describes Joseph and Mary as being residents of Nazareth. This is probably true, but conflicts with Matthew's story which has them living in Bethlehem, and only deciding to go to Nazareth because it would be too dangerous to remain in Judea.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Luke 2:39: Luke describes them as going directly from Bethlehem to Nazareth. This conflicts with Matthew's account which has them fleeing to Egypt and only returning after Herod died. At least one of these accounts must be wrong.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]John: This gospel was written by one or more authors circa 100 CE. The writers would have certainly been aware of the birth stories of Matthew and Luke. But they seem to have rejected the stories as myths, and not worthy of being incorporated into their gospel."[/FONT][/FONT]


    [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]from[/FONT]

    [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Beliefs by conservative & liberal Christians about the Christmas story[/FONT]
     
  16. EtuMalku

    EtuMalku MERCURÆN LUCIFERIAN

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2006
    Messages:
    3,633
    Ratings:
    +905
    Religion:
    H☿D
    So everyone except Logician is glossing over my post? LOL
    If you didn't want to read through it (I can't blame you) it says that Bethlehem was an area that was off limits to livestock raising and herding at the time. Therefore even so it was freezing at this month, no one would be herding LAMBS ;) there still would be no shepherding because of the laws. NOW . . . are lambs & shepherds metaphors
    for something else?
     
  17. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    6,435
    Ratings:
    +1,860
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I've been intrigued by the possibility that there was a connection between two great religions in the birth of Christ:

    The Infancy Gospel of CHrist has the following text:

    CHAPTER III

    And it came to pass, when the Lord Jesus was born at Bethlehem, a city of Judea in the time of Herod the King; the wise men came from the East to Jerusalem, according to the prophecy of Zoradascht(Zoroaster), and brought with them offerings: namely, gold, frankincense, and myrrh, and worshipped him, and offered to him their gifts.

    Source:

    The first Gospel of the INFANCY of JESUS CHRIST-all

    It would to me be signifcant that Zoroaster prophecied the coming of Jesus.

    - Art:)
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    40,201
    Ratings:
    +14,283
    Religion:
    Judaism
    It appears to me that people are giving it all the attention it deserves.
     
  19. EtuMalku

    EtuMalku MERCURÆN LUCIFERIAN

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2006
    Messages:
    3,633
    Ratings:
    +905
    Religion:
    H☿D
    Where was the second great religion? LOL
    Of course Persia knew of this, the first Monotheistic religion is Persian, Zoroaster.
     
  20. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    12,063
    Ratings:
    +374
    This is true.

    See this link: Biblical Holidays Jewish Feasts Reveal Messiah Yeshua -Jesus

    A well known stigmatist has confirmed this, Jesus was born on September 5th.

    She (Myrna Nazzour) has vicariously felt Mary's pains while giving birth to Jesus Christ.

    Take it for what it's worth. Look it up, Google: Myrna stigmatist

    Mock if you will, it makes no difference.

    See: Ether 12: 26
    Fools mock, but they shall mourn.

    See this link for an explanation of this well known stigmatist, who has vicariously felt the pains of Jesus Christ's sufferings. in full. and has also felt Mary's pains. while giving birth to Christ. on the exact day in history Jesus was born, If I remember right it's September 5th, for Christ's birth, and April (first and second week) of course, for his death and or resurrection (most likely April 6th for his death).

    Would have to watch it again to get the dates/times.

    This is approximately a 25 part series, one of these ten minute segments gives the date of Christ's birth, as Myrna (the stigmatist) experiences Mary's birth pains at Christ's birth, the first week in September.

    [​IMG]
    The Miracle of Damascus: Part One
     
Loading...