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Do you believe in life after Death?

Do you believe in life after death?

  • Yes, life after death starts immediately after death, and only Soul continues to live on.

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • Yes, life after death starts at the end of world, when we get resurrected

    Votes: 4 9.5%
  • Yes, we will be reincarnated

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • No, death is the end

    Votes: 14 33.3%
  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 10 23.8%

  • Total voters
    42

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Once the body dies, the spirit or energy has nothing to "keep it alive" so when the body goes so does the spirit (or soul if one wills).
I do not believe that. I believe the soul can exist independent of the body.
I would ask how the soul is dependent on the body to survive if when the body dies, the soul does not. If the soul is paramount to one's spiritual survival, it would make sense that the body wouldn't "hold down" the soul.
The soul is not dependent upon the body to survive, the body is dependent upon the soul to survive.
The soul only needs the body to express itself in the physical world, but when we are no longer IN the physical world, the soul expresses itself in a spiritual body in the spiritual world.
Most say it's a mystery or choose not to describe it for whatever reason. If it's a mystery, etc then it would be hard to even suggest it's existence without some core characteristics that differentiates it from what I mentioned above.

Ya dig?
Since the soul is a mystery, we cannot describe it. We can only know its function because of what Baha'u'llah revealed.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 22: 37; "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your mind.

The mind and the spirit are one and the same according to the Lord, and the mind=spirit develops within the physical body from the information that is taken in through the senses of that body.

1 Corinthians 15: 44; "When buried, it is a physical body; when raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is, of course, a physical body, so there has to be a spiritual body. 46; "It is not the spiritual that comes first, but the physical, and then the spiritual." The spirit develops within the physical body. 50; "What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that what is made of flesh and blood cannot share in God's Kingdom, and what is mortal cannot possess immortality."

Once the physical body, which cannot share in God's Kingdom, is translated to the glorious spiritual body of incorruptible light, for those chosen ones there will be an everlasting life.

The only man to have ascended to the ends of time and was translated so as to never see death, and this man plays absolutely no part in the belief of the Jewish or universal/Catholic church of Emperor Constantine. The stone that the builders rejected has turned out to be the most important stone off all.

The author of the book of Hebrews could only have received the information that Enoch was translated in order to never see death, from the books of Enoch themselves, as nowhere in the canon of the Roman church. Or the Hebrew bible, is that information to be found, and which are found nowhere else other than in the books of Enoch the righteous, from which Jesus and his apostles taught, which books were cherished by the early Christians, and were held in great reverence by many of the early church fathers, including Irenaeus, Tertullian and Origen, until the early 4th century, when under the ban of dogmatic religious authorities of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, such as Jerome, Hillary and Augustin, they passed out of circulation and were thought lost for millennia.

In the Epistle of Jude, who is also called Thomas Didymus Jude [The Twin], and who was born to the house of Mary the mother of Jesus and her husband, the carpenter, See Matthew 13: 55; Jude quotes verbatim from the book of Enoch.

Jude 1: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying,
(Behold, The Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.)


The Book of Enoch---[Chapter 1]

1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:

The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling,
4 And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai,
[And appear from His camp]
And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens.

5 And all shall be smitten with fear
And the Watchers shall quake,
And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth.

6 And the high mountains shall be shaken,
And the high hills shall be made low,
And shall melt like wax before the flame

7 And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder,
And all that is upon the earth shall perish,
And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).

8 But with the righteous He will make peace.
And will protect the elect,
And mercy shall be upon them.
And they shall all belong to God,
And they shall be prospered,
And they shall all be blessed.
And He will help them all,
And light shall appear unto them,
And He will make peace with them'.

9 (And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.)


"The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord"s face.

[Archistratege. Or, "the commander of the armies of the nations, named Michael."]

Hebrew 12: 24; “You have come to Jesus, who arranged THE NEW COVENANT, and the sprinkled blood that promises much better things than does the blood of Abel.”

And the Most-High, (who held the ransom blood of righteous Abel, which could save but one man) said to the glorious creatures that surrounded him, tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity," and the glorious creatures bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go [Or be released] according to Thy word." Enoch, was the first to be released.

And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, is the one who was anointed as the successor to the throne of the Most-High in the creation: Christ= The Anointed one.]

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun’s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

To translate something is to change it from one form to another. Hebrews 11: 5; “By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not experience death, and he was not found because God had translated him.”

Enoch the cornerstone, was the first of all the spirits of the righteous that were gathered to the bosom of Abraham in the creation of God’s new temple, the man Jesus, who is the 'FIRST FRUITS' (Plural) to be harvested from the body of mankind.

Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."

Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 (In days---A calendar year: the one-year old sacrificial Lamb of God.) and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

Hebrews 11: 5; “By faith Enoch was translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
ahhh, your going to limit the power of God ?
Interesting how YOU are the one claiming this limits god.
One wonders if you honestly believe that anything your god decides to not do something it is always because your god can not do it?

He did not say that god CAN not do it.
He said that god does not do it.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
Interesting how YOU are the one claiming this limits god.
One wonders if you honestly believe that anything your god decides to not do something it is always because your god can not do it?

He did not say that god CAN not do it.
He said that god does not do it.
had you read the bible you would know that Jesus put life back in to many different one's
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Once the physical body, which cannot share in God's Kingdom, is translated to the glorious spiritual body of incorruptible light, for those chosen ones there will be an everlasting life.
There is no such thing as a glorious spiritual body of incorruptible light. This is not in the Bible anywhere.

There is no such thing as a physical body that is transformed into an immortal body. It is not in the Bible anywhere. This is a Christian belief that came about because the Bible was misinterpreted. ALL these misconceptions about a Resurrection Body came about because Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

It is clear and plain what the Bible SAYS.

There are physical bodies and spiritual bodies, as Paul said. The physical body is the source of all corruption as the Bible says, it is the source of dishonor, it is weak, and that is because the physical body is subject to sin.

The spiritual body is incorruptible because spirit can never die. Paul said that the body is raised in glory and raised in power and that is because the spiritual body has glory and power. The soul (spirit) is glorified and has power because it was created by God.

Jesus said that spirit and flesh are not equivalent. The spirit quickens, the flesh profits nothing. The flesh profits nothing because it is subject to sin and it is mortal, not everlasting.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


Baha’is believe that souls go to heaven and take on a spiritual body, which is the same thing as what Paul says in 1st Cor:

We are raised in a spiritual body and only spiritual bodies can enter heaven.

(1st Corinthians 15:35) "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
ahhh, your going to limit the power of God ?
Oh please, don't pull that argument atheists use about how God is omnipotent so God can do anything. :rolleyes:

This has NOTHING to do with God's power.
Physical bodies were never created by God to live forever, so they won't...

God always gets what He wants because God is omnipotent. ;)
That means you won't get what you want -- life forever on earth in a physical body -- because you are not omnipotent.

The Garden of Eden was a metaphorical story, no such place ever existed. Imo.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
Oh please, don't pull that argument atheists use about how God is omnipotent so God can do anything. :rolleyes:

This has NOTHING to do with God's power.
Physical bodies were never created by God to live forever, so they won't...

God always gets what He wants because God is omnipotent. ;)
That means you won't get what you want -- life forever on earth in a physical body -- because you are not omnipotent.

The Garden of Eden was a metaphorical story, no such place ever existed. Imo.
it there was no Garden of Eden then there was no Adam which means he did not have any children. no children means you dont exist.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?
we go into the next life naked

all that we have become stands into the light

I for one....
would be hoping for robe....with a hood

and I might need a ring on my finger as a sign of belonging
so that no one thinks I stole the robe
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as a glorious spiritual body of incorruptible light. This is not in the Bible anywhere.

There is no such thing as a physical body that is transformed into an immortal body. It is not in the Bible anywhere. This is a Christian belief that came about because the Bible was misinterpreted. ALL these misconceptions about a Resurrection Body came about because Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

It is clear and plain what the Bible SAYS.

There are physical bodies and spiritual bodies, as Paul said. The physical body is the source of all corruption as the Bible says, it is the source of dishonor, it is weak, and that is because the physical body is subject to sin.

The spiritual body is incorruptible because spirit can never die. Paul said that the body is raised in glory and raised in power and that is because the spiritual body has glory and power. The soul (spirit) is glorified and has power because it was created by God.

Jesus said that spirit and flesh are not equivalent. The spirit quickens, the flesh profits nothing. The flesh profits nothing because it is subject to sin and it is mortal, not everlasting.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


Baha’is believe that souls go to heaven and take on a spiritual body, which is the same thing as what Paul says in 1st Cor:

We are raised in a spiritual body and only spiritual bodies can enter heaven.

(1st Corinthians 15:35) "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
''Of course nothing that the Baha'is believe comes from the Bible, it comes from the Writings of Baha'u'llah''
for some one thats so convinced that Baha'u'llah has it figured out you sure do try to use scripter's from the bible
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, it is what Abdu'l-Baha offered, since He is the one who wrote it.

Abdu'l-Baha is in no way equivalent to Baha'u'llah because he was not infallible, even if Baha'is would like to believe that.

The covenant of Baha'u'llah does not support your view Trailblazer. It is a good subject to study.

The issue you raised has been asked and addressed In a letter to The Universal House of Justice as follows;

Dear Friends,

Several related questions concerning the infallibility of Abdu'l-Bahá and the authority and interpretation of certain of His statements have been troubling us recently. Our questions may be set out as follows:

(1) Does Bahá'u'lláh explicitly state and define the infallibility of Abdu'l-Bahá anywhere in His writings?

Answer;

The Universal House of Justice has asked us to acknowledge your letter of April 28 and to make the following comments concerning your three questions.

(1) It was the express wish of Bahá'u'lláh that after Him the friends should "turn" to 'Abdu'l-Bahá. Bahá'u'lláh also said in His Book of Laws that anything that was not clear in His Writings should be "referred" to His Most Mighty Branch springing from the Ancient Root. (See "The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh" pages 134-135.) In one of the Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bahá published in "Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá" (page 214) He quotes the passages mentioned above and interprets them to mean that "whatever He ('Abdu'l-Bahá) saith is the very truth". 'Abdu'l-Bahá further says, referring to those who do not accept Him as the Interpreter of the Word of God, "Whoso deviates from my interpretation is a victim of his own fancy" ("The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh" page 138). Moreover, in the "Star of the West" Volume XII, page 227, 'Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the verses from the "Tablet of the Branch" to mean "...whatsoever His (Abdu'l-Bahá's) pen records, that is correct...."

Infallibility and Knowledge of Abdu'l-Baha

To show there is no doubt about this, this passage will suffice;

"In the Súriy-i-Ghusn (Tablet of the Branch) the following verses have been recorded: “There hath branched from the Sadratu’l-Muntahá this sacred and glorious Being, this Branch of Holiness; well is it with him that hath sought His shelter and abideth beneath His shadow. Verily the Limb of the Law of God hath sprung forth from this Root which God hath firmly implanted in the Ground of His Will, and Whose Branch hath been so uplifted as to encompass the whole of creation. Magnified be He, therefore, for this sublime, this blessed, this mighty, this exalted Handiwork!… A Word hath, as a token of Our grace, gone forth from the Most Great Tablet—a Word which God hath adorned with the ornament of His own Self, and made it sovereign over the earth and all that is therein, and a sign of His greatness and power among its people …Render thanks unto God, O people, for His appearance; for verily He is the most great Favor unto you, the most perfect bounty upon you; and through Him every mouldering bone is quickened. Whoso turneth towards Him hath turned towards God, and whoso turneth away from Him hath turned away from My beauty, hath repudiated My Proof, and transgressed against Me. He is the Trust of God amongst you, His charge within you, His manifestation unto you and His appearance among His favored servants… We have sent Him down in the form of a human temple. Blest and sanctified be God Who createth whatsoever He willeth through His inviolable, His infallible decree. They who deprive themselves of the shadow of the Branch, are lost in the wilderness of error, are consumed by the heat of worldly desires, and are of those who will assuredly perish.”

As to the station of Abdul'Baha, we know that he said he is to be only known as Abdul'Baha, the "Servant of Baha"

This link about Abdul'Baha to me is detailed information on this subject. Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 131-140

Regards Tony
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Interesting how YOU are the one claiming this limits god.
One wonders if you honestly believe that anything your god decides to not do something it is always because your god can not do it?

He did not say that god CAN not do it.
He said that god does not do it.

You seem to be a bit disagreeable lately Mestemia......you were a nice person there for a while...what happened?
confused0007.gif


Resurrection is not just spoken about in the Bible...it was demonstrated, by Jesus as well as Paul. Elijah too resurrected a child.

Since Jesus' instructions to his apostles was to 'heal the sick and raise the dead' (along with preaching about God's Kingdom) perhaps there were others whose lives were restored who were not mentioned in the scriptures. But resurrections are what Jesus performed....one in the city of Nain where a widow was burying her only son. Jesus took pity on the woman and restored his life, giving her back the son who would look after her in her old age. Another was Jairus' daughter, whom Jesus raised and returned her to her family, and the most famous of course was Lazarus....who was in his grave and Jesus called to him and he came out still in his grave wrappings.

Now if the souls of these ones had gone to a better place, why would Jesus have brought them back to this life, only to die again later? Jesus said that Lazarus was "sleeping"....he said the same thing of the young girl.....so death is a sleep from which people can be awakened. Their resurrection did not change who they were, but simply restored their life as it was before.

In John 5:28-29, Jesus promises to call all the dead from their graves......
If there are immortal souls floating about who-knows-where.....what are they doing for thousands of years while waiting for their return to life? Where did they go? If they are already in heaven, what is the point of the resurrection? If they have gone to a hell of eternal torment, then why bring them back? The resurrection is for both the righteous and the unrighteous. Hades is to give up its dead. (Revelation 20:13) Hades is simply the grave.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 says that the dead are not conscious.....they have no ability to think or plan or to take part in any activity. So the "sleep" of death is unconsciousness. Hades and sheol simply represent the place where all the dead go. When they are resurrected, they will simply resume their former lives.....as if they closed their eyes but a moment ago.

There is no need to fear death, and there are many reasons to feel optimistic about those we have lost in death.....some taken all too soon in accidents and illnesses. We will see them again and resume relationships we thought had ended. Is that a bad thing?
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
had you read the bible you would know that Jesus put life back in to many different one's
I am wondering if English is not your native language?

I am not trying to be a jerk, it just seems you do not understand written English.
Like others I know for whom English is a second or third language.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
it there was no Garden of Eden then there was no Adam which means he did not have any children. no children means you dont exist.
No, it does not mean that. It means that the story of Adam and Eve was allegorical.
Adam and Eve were not the first man and woman, that is impossible since the human race existed long before Adam and Eve. Humans have existed for appx. 200,000 years.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The covenant of Baha'u'llah does not support your view Trailblazer. It is a good subject to study.
I was expecting this to be the next thing you said. ;)
Fundamentalist Baha'is are all pretty much the same.
You have to be faithful to the Covenant.... My husband is the same way.

I do not need to study the Covenant because I know it like the back of my hand but that will never make Abdu'l-Baha infallible because He is not a Manifestation of God. If you and the other Baha'is choose to believe that Abdu'l-Baha cannot make a mistake that is your choice.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
'Abdu'l-Bahá further says, referring to those who do not accept Him as the Interpreter of the Word of God, "Whoso deviates from my interpretation is a victim of his own fancy" ("The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh" page 138).
Sounds really arrogant to me, but we all have out own views.

Interpreter of the Word of God is not the same thing as the Word of God. Abdu'l-Baha did more than interpret, he added to and embellished what Baha'u'llah wrote.

It almost makes me want to drop out of the Baha'i Faith, which I would have done long ago were it not for believing that Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
To show there is no doubt about this, this passage will suffice;
Ask me if I care? I don't care because some of the things Abdu'l-Baha has said I consider egregious.

I am sure Baha'u'llah had the best of intentions but He had no control over what Abdu'l-Baha did after he died. The same thing has happened to the Baha'i Faith as has happened to all the religions. Everything changes after the Prophet dies.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Whoso turneth towards Him hath turned towards God, and whoso turneth away from Him hath turned away from My beauty, hath repudiated My Proof, and transgressed against Me. He is the Trust of God amongst you, His charge within you, His manifestation unto you and His appearance among His favored servants…
That makes me wonder if I should just drop out now and get it over with. Maybe I should.

I wish you all the best, as you always say to me.
 
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