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Featured Do we need to repent of our sins now?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by djhwoodwerks, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Not so, unless there was a preaching and proselytizing program in existence before the nation of Israel was formed. The ones who left the worship of the true God came after the flood, and under Nimrod's influence carried their false religious ideas with them all over the world. Only a rare few individuals stayed loyal to the true God, like Job and Abraham.

    The nation of Israel did not come into existence until Jacob's 12 sons were taken in by their brother Joseph, who was sent to Egypt in advance of them to ensure that God's purpose in connection with Abraham's promise was kept. (Genesis 22:18) Their numbers increased markedly whilst they were being ill treated as slaves in Egypt. That arrangement kept God's people together as one family group in one location on earth, ensuring the family line of descent to the Messiah was preserved. Their release from captivity was brought about by God using a man he had deemed from birth to be the deliverer of his people. That did not take place until Moses was 80 years old in 1514 BCE.

    Absolutely. But this did not mean that people could be put to death in ignorance. Even the people of Noah's day were given advance warning of God's intentions. Ungodliness is expressed in many ways....and it is only the "ungodly" who will perish. (2 Peter 3:5-7) Where does that leave those whom Jesus addresses in Matthew 7:21-23?....

    "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

    These are those who acknowledge Jesus as their "Lord". Yet he does not acknowledge them as his disciples....why? Because they fail to "do the will of the Father". Look at what they offer Jesus as an excuse....as if that is even possible?
    You will notice that he says he NEVER knew them...that means that in all the time of their existence, he has never recognized them as anything but "workers of lawlessness".

    The parable of the 'wheat and the weeds' indicates that the seeds sown by the devil were planted soon after the Christian congregation was established. You can trace the implanting from the second century CE and as the weeds grew, so out of that tangled mess emerged Christendom with all the traits of Babylon in her doctrines. Only at the "time of the end" was God going to 'cleanse and refine' his people with an 'abundance of knowledge' that the 'wicked' would not understand . (Daniel 12:9-10) Who are the wicked? Those who fail to "do the will of the Father", according to Jesus.

    This all makes perfect sense to me. It is what I see with my own eyes and what I experienced when I was raised in Christendom. There was no priority given to the witnessing work and no knowledge of the Kingdom ever specifically taught. Only when I had a study of the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses did it all finally make sense.
     
    #81 Deeje, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  2. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    If someone asks you a question, and you know the truthful answer, if you deem that person not worthy of the truth, then it's ok to lie? Even tho the Bible says,

    Revelation 21:8 (ESV Strong's) 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    OK, but you have to know that the Christian scriptures were written by and for those who would join Christ in heaven as part of the governing arrangement of the Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) They are resurrected "first" to take up their positions in the kingdom, ready for when the general resurrection of the dead is to take place once this wicked system is demolished. So their "death and resurrection" is the same as the one Jesus experienced since they are the ones 'baptized into his death'.

    It is our belief that the majority of humans living at this time of the end will be subjects of the kingdom, rather than its rulers because their numbers are dwindling as they pass off the earthly scene. The "great crowd" however continue to grow.
    Since the "choosing" of the "joint-heirs with Christ" is done by God, no one will get to heaven without his say so.

    The two distinct groups mentioned at Revelation 7 are a smaller finite group numbered at 144,000 whereas the "great crowd" seen standing before God's throne and attributing salvation to God and the Lamb are said to be uncountable and out of all nations.....that means that there are two groups who are saved....one goes to heaven as kings and priests and the other get to be their subjects on earth. (Revelation 7 4; 9-10; Revelation 14:1-3; Revelation 21:1-4)

    This means that the Christian scriptures apply to the great crowd in principle because we are not baptized into Christ and will not go to heaven, but will have him as our King for 1,000 years with no interference from the devil until we are all as physically and mentally perfect as Adam once was. (Revelation 20:1-3) God's original purpose will go ahead with us or without us....so, let's see who makes it eh? That will be Jesus' decision of course.
     
  4. roger1440

    roger1440 I do stuff

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    Do we need to repent of our sins now? Yes, we only have now.
     
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  5. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    You appear to be under-thinking everything. Do you see what you type?

    "The wages of sin is death. No sin = no death." No sin= no death, so who/what pays the wage here, a person or sin? The person doesn't pay the wage of death, they reap death from sin, sin PAYS the wage.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    In countries where our work is banned, authorities often put pressure on brothers to disclose the whereabouts of other Witnesses. We will not give them that information any more than you would betray your family members to those who would do them harm. That is not lying, any more than Jesus was not lying when he remained silent under questioning from the Roman authorities.

    You have a very twisted view of our beliefs and I am glad to see that they often backfire on you as you betray your loathing of us.....it is not a healthy obsession IMO.
    I am thinking perhaps that you fear that we might be right.....? You have to fight that of course. [​IMG]

    We are all free to make our own choices in these issues. If you are certain of your choices, then go in peace....what have you got to lose?
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    OMgoodness.....do you see what you write? :facepalm:
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, agree 'repent' now because as 2 Peter 3:9 gives us two (2) choices to either 'repent ' or 'perish ' (be destroyed).
    So, those who are still alive on Earth at the soon coming judgement ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth at per Matthew 25:31-33,37 those with a favorable judgement can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth, at this particular ' judgement time ' before Jesus begins his 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.

    Those who have committed the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6 are Not ever forgiven. Their adverse judgement is final. As for those others who are dead, Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' and informs us that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection........, that resurrection does Not include the wicked because as Psalms 92:7 says the wicked are to be destroyed forever. That happy-and-healthy coming physical resurrection is for those judged as just or righteous, and the unjust or unrighteous ones who are already dead.
     
  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Even ' liar sinner Satan ' will end up in that symbolic ' second death ' of Revelation 21:8.
    In ' Bible speak ', so to speak, there is a BIG difference between lying and ' divulging information ' or ' withholding information ' that does Not belong to another.
    We have the fine example set for us about King David found at 1 Samuel 21:13-15.
     
  10. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    I know witnesses believe most of Revelation is symbolic, explain how this verse is symbolic,

    Revelation 20:10 (ESV Strong's) 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    g0928. βασανίζω basanizō; from 931; to torture: — pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

    If one ceases to exist, how can there be torture, pain and torment, "day and night forever and ever"?

    Revelation 20:15 (ESV Strong's) 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your reply, and I do find Revelation is written in very-vivid word pictures for us.
    In Bible speak, so to speak, there is a BIG difference between the words ' torment ' and ' torture '.
    For example: the word ' torment ' (Not torture) at Matthew 18:34; Matthew 18:30 is used in connection to a jailer.
    In Bible times a jailer alone does Not mean a ' torturer', but the ' torment ' of being jailed as in restrainted there.
    The jailer (tormentor) was to keep them ' safely ' or ' secured ' according to Acts of the Apostles 16:23-36.

    So, as you highlighted the word 'tormented', instead of tortured, we need to see what is the torment of Rev. 20:10.
    I find the clue to be in the biblical definition of the 'lake of fire'.
    If we continue reading down to Revelation 20:13-14 the definition of the lake of fire is given there.
    Please notice in verse 13 first the dead are resurrected out of temporary biblical hell (grave) ( KJV uses the words ' delivered up ' in meaning resurrected out of biblical hell ). Then, please notice in verse 14 that emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' lake of fire '. The definition of the lake is given as: ' second death '.
    Even lying sinner Satan will end up in ' second death ' as per Revelation 21:8
    Since Jesus will ' destroy ' Satan according to Hebrews 6:4-6, then ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction.
    As in that all the wicked will be 'destroyed forever' (annihilated) as Psalms 92:7 tells us.
    So, stating 'day and night' would be a fitting word picture for us showing No escaping from everlasting destruction.
    So, if anyone's name is Not in the ' book of life' they end up destroyed forever, the symbolic ' second death '.

    Any thoughts about the people at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth at Matthew 25:31-33,37.
     
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