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Featured Do the gospels report that Jesus liked his food and wine with nasty people, sometimes to excess?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by oldbadger, Oct 9, 2021.

  1. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    No, Elisha, I crossed no line. You would need to actually show the verse which tells that Jesus never sinned, and then I would show you verses which showed that he did.
    I said that drinking enough wine to be inebriated is no sin, and even then I do not recognise sin like you must do.
    Why you are so worried about drinking wine to inebriation is strange, I think. Do you worry so much about all the others?
    The Jesus I read about on the gospels was a man who campaigned for social justice and an end to Temple corruption. I do not recognise him as God who created trillions of star systems in billions of galaxies but who then came to this tiny planet after 13+ billion years to save humans.... the idea is just very strange to me. So the Jesus I believe in was a man and who he drank and ate with I care not a hoot. :)
     
  2. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Another post of ranting waffle from you, Fallen Prophet.
     
  3. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Read the book
     
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  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    Such as his 12 disciples. They were each in some way undesireable. Judas was a Sicario (Iscariot). Peter was a fisherman and not a good man. James and John were argumentative and hot headed. etc etc. These were not good people, the sort of people you'd seek out to give business loans. They lacked potential. I am serious about this. These were the worst twelve disciples available.

    There was the wedding where he turned giant jugs of water into wine. I presume the wine was distributed in tiny plastic cups that couldn't get anyone drunk, but I might be wrong about it. :satire: Its possible that some people were drunk at the wedding, but Jewish weddings are not described in scripture. Perhaps celebrants only dip the tips of their fingers in the wine and suck it off, like in a ritual? A wedding is already joyous enough without getting drunk so why would they need to be drunk. Makes no sense. I'm sure Jesus would never get drunk at a wedding, because he was Jewish. :notserious:
     
  5. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    I confess I don't understand why you are so keen to push the idea of Jesus getting drunk - unless you yourself get drunk a lot and it would make you feel better to think he did the same;). The gospels are completely silent on this. All we know is that Jesus did, like just about all his compatriots, drink wine.

    But there is more general evidence from his teaching that he regarded self-control as important - as in fact do just about all religious teachers, in every religion.
     
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  6. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Ok go for it, here are some verses about His sinlessness.
    10 Bible verses about Jesus Christ, Sinlessness
     
  7. Shadow11

    Shadow11 Member

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    He was at a wedding and made more wine when it ran out I'm sure he had a few glasses Having a few glasses and feeling the wine is normal it was also a staple drink like milk is today even kids drank the wine. But claiming he was a stumbling inebriated drunk from whats read is ridiculous. I guess he picked fights and puked all over the place too in your mind. People do drink with in the limits - who was Jesus - what a man with no self control?Was he chasing the ladies too?
     
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  8. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    I've always said that! Whitstable is full of 'em, going out an' catching them poor fishes, n' stuff.

    I don't drink a lot of booze these days, but who wouldn't invite Jesus to a wedding?
    And while he's about it maybe the feast could just appear?
     
  9. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Oh yes..... I've been more than just inebriated, back in my 20's. Nature provided me with the most wonderful cure so that I would take care with alcohol........... alcohol poisoning, not forgotten in a lifetime.
    Why do I push it? I asked a question, the thread title asked if the gospels reported........
    The reason why I asked is because the gospels, once stripped of Christian fiddling, show me a man determined to struggle for social justice in a land where the peasant classes had none. And I mention peasants classes because there was really no middle class. He was a man, and he would have done things that people do......... raising him up to a god who created everything and couldn't even enjoy a drink does need shaking, I suppose.

    Yes, Jesus wanted a controlled 'people' to rise up against the outrages committed by the Leadership, but he certainly enjoyed his food, wine and company...... that isn't 'out of control'.....
    I remember that my Dad's generation and company thought that enjoying alcohol was socially important, a teetotaler was at a certain disadvantage. A colleague slightly sloshed was a great joke next day, but if a man was discovered to drink at home...... oh no! The hypocrisy was huge.
    I always drank water in a small glass at company functions because I would drive home, but one evening my boss discovered....... he was actually angry!
     
  10. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Hello Elisha..... I'm having a little trouble with your verses. None of them mention enjoying food and wine with chosen friends..... and don't forget, Jesus and the Baptist, their disciples were offering redemption/cleansing through immersion for NOTHING...... clearly cutting off Temple Takings, and I expect the priesthood considered all that a grave sin. :)

    Now let's look at your offerings:-
    It looks as if Peter is talking about the greed, the mammon of riches. Peter probably enjoyed his wine as well, so why do you think that he would have had such things in mind?

    It might be best if you would rage against those who have amassed fortunes of unreasonable wealth when a huge % of our peoples cannot afford a small home, Elisha...... 'Silver and Gold'

    Ah! ....Paul! Interestingly, apart from mentions of Jesus in his last 36 hours Paul never ever made mention of anything that Jesus ever did, not one mention of any part of his mission. I don't think Paul was that interested in Jesus the man who stood up against Temple corruption at all.

    Ah yes...... Luke's story, now that's interesting because in that pre-nativity story Luke made the Baptist a cousin of Jesus, who in verses connected to this debate the Baptist clearly didn't know Jesus..... ;'Are you the one?'
    No mention of having a drink anywhere....

    Of course, the author/s of John's gospel, letters, revelations etc....they were not there, not the disciple, and Pilate wasn't debating the amount of wine that could be drunk ...... BY the way, Pilate did let a man go free, much loved by the people, who had rampaged (probably) through Temple and city causing a riot, who the people loved so much that they rose up for his freedom, a man called Jesus Son of the Father, but his first name was removed from early bibles and his last name was hidden in plain sight in Eastern Aramaic..... Jesus Barabbas. I'll bet that this Jesus ate and drank heartily with his friends. Have you ever thought of that?

    Isaiah didn't know Jesus. He was just a prophet.
     
  11. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    There was no mention of Jesus being an alcoholic......... he probably just ate and drank heartily with his friends, sometimes to excess. Certain members needed to take the thread title up to 'alcoholic' levels in order to refute it all.

    After all, for Christians Jesus is the God that created the universe and all beyond, who came here to save humans! And that God certainly could not have a good drink with mates, even though he created the devil and sin. Amazing.
     
  12. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    I very much agree with the sentiments about him being a man of the people, though he was a craftsman rather than a peasant. However I think it is slightly misreading the gospels to make him out to be a warrior for social justice. His emphasis was always on what the attitude of the individual should be towards the disadvantaged, rather than attempting to change the social structure. The message is about the way to individual salvation rather than effecting social change.

    As far as eating and drinking, the only thing we are told in the gospels about his habits in this respect is that he was prepared to socialise with anyone and ate and drank like normal people, rather than being a holy ascetic of the John the Baptist type.
     
  13. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    And all that to say…Jesus is and was sinless. :cool:
     
  14. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    The appearance of Barabbas may not support your theory. The three gospels mentioning Barabbas are telling us that Barabbas way is not "The way" to go and that we must not fight physically our oppressors (the Romans). I think its an allusion to a particular sacrifice in Jewish law where one goat is killed with a knife and the other (called the 'Scapegoat') is set loose or tossed over a cliff or something. Point is, one is eaten and the other is not. One is good for food and one is not. There could be clues in Barabbas name. Bar means 'Son', and the writers are purposely not using a personal name as they do for everyone else and are instead calling him 'Son of Rabbas'. To me it seems Barabbas is put forward as one not to be consumed, not someone to emulate, so it it is a message to remain pacifist within the Roman empire. The topic may be confusing to the Jews living in the land of Israel, proper; because they have not been dragged away to a foreign country. Instead they are in their own country oppressed, so what is the right thing to do? The gospels say to go with peace.



    Yes, Jesus is not the type to shout rise up and oppose the oppressors.
     
  15. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    There were several strata in the peasant classes. Something like quarantine, beggar, labourer, haulier, wood-stone-bone worker, metal worker, landholder/farmer...... there was no middle class. To rise up in to the ranks of the Levite orders or above one had to be either a brilliant merchant or successful brigand. Herod the Great had been a brigand! :)

    I don't think so..... No. The Baptist, by offering cleansing, redemption and 'feel-good' for absolutely nothing (I expect his disciples did get gifts) folks could turn about and go home with their savings. Jesus (disciples) was doing the same thing. The Temple, bazaar and local-services takings must have slumped quite a lot....... Jesus was against the whole corrupt system, offering mercy and not sacrifice, and later demonstrating strongly in the Temple and picketing the Temple courts. Individual salvation? I think that was Paul's spin, myself.

    I think that's why John got worried, hearing stories about Jesus ........
    So called 'Normal' people didn't socialise with anyone back then and they don't now, imo :D
    I'll never forget my late wife's mother's exasperation at some of our Bahai acquaintances (back then) .... she stamped her foot down, exclaiming well I don't think they're proper! I'll bet Jesus got plenty of that.

    For what it's worth, from as much research as I have managed, I admire the Baptist and Jesus very much, but as people. Of course that must offend some Christians, but not those who visit and take our hospitality here.
     
  16. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Look. I acknowledge your belief and faith, OK?
    But my researches must take me where they will......... I can only follow my own findings, Elisha.
    And I personally don't think that enjoying too much wine or food comes close to the sin of Mammon. I don't think Jesus did either. :)
     
  17. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Ummmm...... cannot agree.
    Jesus Barabbas (Jesus son of the Father) was much loved by all the common people. He was a Norther Jew if he had a nickname like 'Bar' and not the Southern 'Ben' and he was on a mission. He caused upheaval and riot, probably in Temple and city and was convicted, but the people loved him so much that they stood up for him to the point that Pilate was worried enough to think of a reason to free him. I wonder if the people had welcomed him with palm leaves and blessings when he had arrived there? I wonder if he was the Jesus who went back out through Galilee afterwards, seen by so many?
    Oh........ and I'll bet he liked to eat and drink with his mates.
    Maybe Muhammad got it right, about Jesus? I'll never know, all too long ago now.
     
  18. Shadow11

    Shadow11 Member

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    I was making fun of the thread - I find it absolutely hilarious that someone would interpret it as Jesus being a drunk but that's how it is now you can post anything and there will always be opposition to the point of insanity and all you can do is laugh. I could say the sky is blue and guaranteed there would be a few telling me its not.
     
  19. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    This is what you said and was answering because seems you forgot:
    No, Elisha, I crossed no line. You would need to actually show the verse which tells that Jesus never sinned, and then I would show you verses which showed that he did.
    So I gave you the Scriptures that Jesus Christ was and is without sin.:cool:
     
  20. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    And I answered your post, showing that not one verse was pertinent.
     
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