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Featured Do the gospels report that Jesus liked his food and wine with nasty people, sometimes to excess?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by oldbadger, Oct 9, 2021.

  1. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    I already sent you a link although I use Kevin Connors book as a resource. You seem to want to read into the Scriptures things that aren’t there like when you say Jesus got inebriated, you cannot prove this and is just your opinion and false view because God said different in His Word.

    “Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.”
    ‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭30:5-6‬ ‭ESV‬‬
     
  2. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Comprehension much? 'Like I say'? People told that they had seen Jesus with bad company, eating and drinking to excess. You say that these people are obviously bad wicked liars! But you don't have the first clue, since you believe half of their claims to suit your story.


    It's very interesting that you can wave a 'scientific review' around to prove a point, but cannot even just write down its basic principles.
    I read as far as this 'principle' and then left that link...... See here:-

    2. The Bible communicates God’s thinking; therefore, it must be interpreted logically.

    So this is your idea of science? But how did your author prove that ? The gospels themselves contradict each other so much. Your God must have been having difficulty in guiding those author's pens, I think.


    Obviously, as a deist who recognises that Mother Nature is the resident governor around here, and chaos the dance floor for all that happens, I can tell you absolutely and with certainty that you are rigidly bound to obey her every whim, no matter what.
     
  3. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    So the answers is yes the Religious leaders that said Jesus had a demon, was a glutton, winebibber and plotted to kill him were wicked and liars. So these guys are the ones you are believing, lol.

    “Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him. But they said, “Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.””
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:3-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    “And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him. And the Lord said, “To what then shall I liken the men of this generation, and what are they like? They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another, saying: ‘We played the flute for you, And you did not dance; We mourned to you, And you did not weep.’ For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by all her children.””
    ‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:29-35‬ ‭NKJV‬


    “Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.” But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:24-28‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Just in case you weren’t familiar with the gospels, here are some references.
    :cool:
     
    #203 ElishaElijah, Dec 1, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
  4. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    So do you. You believe them and their claims that he sat with nasty people.
    Cherry picking, much?

    Just in case you are not familiar with the gospels, pens all guided by the hand of God, the above verses seem to be wrong. John tries to tell it that it was 'The Jews' who hated, plotted against, wanted to kill.... Jesus'.

    Read away, and then cherry pick your truth:-

    John {5:18} Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the
    sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    John {6:41} The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. {6:42} And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

    John {7:1} After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

    ....there are many more examples from G-John.

    Again....... Jesus was seen to sit with nasty people, eating and drinking, sometimes to excess. Did his enemies always lie? If so, Jesus never sat with nasty people.
     
  5. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    The question wasn’t who Jesus ate and drank with, it was whether He got inebriated or not. The answer to that is NO. The Scriptures all point to Jesus as the spotless, sinless Lamb of God who came to take away the sin of the World. That my friend is what He did.
    “Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.” And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.” Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!” And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.”
    ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:2-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    This is quite a scene in Heaven for the One and Only person found to be worthy.
     
  6. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    .........according to you.
    But according to folks who were there, Jesus did....... so to you they may well have all been evil satanic enemies of Jesus.....but to me they just spoke about what they saw.

    I don't think that Jesus was spotless, sinless or a lamb, I must say. But a social warrior standing up for social justice, yes.

    Who? 'Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David' ?? ..... But Jesus was a Galilean Jew, not of ancient line.
    You see...... this passage, written by 'who knows?' for 'what reasons?' .... I do not take notice of it.

    If a Heaven would exist I really don't think that enjoying one's wine to excess now and then could ever be a cause for a ban. But unnecessary wealth, lack of care for the young, poor, ill and needy...... that might.
     
  7. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity The Real Men in Black
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    That is Catholic doctrine but is debatable if we are going by scripture alone. Scriptures suggest he may not have been perfect before his death and may have been disobedient before he turned thirty years of age. Three things:
    1. The Son of Man had to "Learn obedience through what he suffered" suggesting he wasn't always perfect when he was alive and may have needed 33 years to grow and learn obedience. He wasn't tested in the wilderness when he was 14 but when he was 30 or so. He wasn't baptized by John until then, either. Little was told of his early life except that he was very good with scripture analysis and that he didn't grasp why his parents were so slow. In other words had he been tested in the wilderness at age 14 he might not have obeyed his Father's will. Possibly he was tested before and failed, and that would be disobedience to a parent -- breaking one of the 10 commandments.
    2. Hebrews specifically states he was made perfect only when he died.
    3. There is more than one kind of sin made confusing by semantics and Greek language. It can refer to disobedience, to ignorance, to disease, to weakness, to murders, thefts, thoughts, intentions, desires, sins of neglect. 'Sin' is not one thing but appears that way do to the Greek casual expression. Language also causes confusion. Just as English can't express the 4 love's of Greek language, Greek cannot express the various terms that it fuses into 'Sin'.
     
  8. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    The Scriptural Doctrine is that God became a man Jesus Christ, was tempted in every way yet without sin, as a man He had to learn obedience by the things He suffered doesn’t mean He wasn’t perfect but He experienced humanity and was found without sin and no deceit in His speech. We also have an example when He was a young man, He made quite an impression. Your views don’t line up with the Scriptures.

    “And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom. And the favor of God was upon him. Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom. And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, but supposing him to be in the group they went a day’s journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances, and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, searching for him. After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. And when his parents saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.” And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them. And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.”
    ‭‭Luke‬ ‭2:40-52‬ ‭

    “For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.”
    ‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21-25‬ ‭ESV‬‬

    “Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:14-16‬ ‭ESV‬‬

    “For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness. Because of this he is obligated to offer sacrifice for his own sins just as he does for those of the people. And no one takes this honor for himself, but only when called by God, just as Aaron was. So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”; as he says also in another place, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.” In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:1-10‬ ‭ESV‬‬
    So yes He was made perfect not meaning He was imperfect otherwise He would’ve been like the other priests who had to offer a sacrifice for their own sin but since Jesus Christ was sinless and perfect, He is able to provide eternal salvation for us.
     
  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity The Real Men in Black
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    I respect you as an equal not as a superior. We can reason about what is scriptural doctrine.

    There is a difference between saying Jesus becomes divine and saying that God becomes a man. All have one Father, and Jesus is the first of many brothers.

    In a way I don't disagree. I'm also not trying to derail your conversation with Old Badger who I know can be distracting. Hebrews directly states he is made perfect only at the end of his life, in or after his death. (Hebrews 5:9 "...and once made perfect he became...")

    My views can change just as yours can. I wish you wouldn't assume I was shallow. I'm no genius, but I have equal access to God as you. God is no respecter of individuals and doesn't judge who is deserving of wisdom. I'm also not your enemy necessarily. Its entirely possible I've pointed out something you have overlooked. Why would I do that if I wanted to harm you.

    Great point. I forgot that phrase. So the time he spent growing up was spent filling him with wisdom.


    Also a great point. He committed no sin. True, so he must not have disobeyed but still had to learn obedience. Perhaps this took 30 years, or perhaps he died around 33 for some other reason. It did, however, take time for him to learn. He wasn't born with no need to learn anything. He was becoming divine. He was putting away the human and replacing it with the divine, and then finally through death achieving perfection.

    No, I don't agree with your summary of the verse. He still was a human, so he had evil desires. Those were purged in his death. Otherwise how could he have been tempted?
     
  10. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Just to let you know I don’t think I’m superior to anyone but do believe the Bible is the Word of God and is the Truth so any idea that contradicts the Truth of Scripture is false in my view, the Scripture also teaches this.
    Psalm 119
    “Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.”
    ‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭30:5-6‬ ‭ESV‬‬
    “We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,”
    ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭10:5‬ ‭ESV‬‬
    “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,”
    ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:12-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

    The Bible says that Jesus is the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God, the Word became flesh. John 1. He was born of the Holy Spirit and a virgin. God and Man. He emptied Himself. So He didn’t become a God, He always was but in order for man to be redeemed He is the only one who could, all others fail. In order to do that He had to become a man and actually live it out and die. It’s so amazing to me that He did that!


    “Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
    ‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭ESV‬‬
     
  11. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity The Real Men in Black
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    Good lyrics though I don't know the tune.

    [Psa 119:18-19 NIV] "18 Open my eyes that I may see wonderful things in your law. 19 I am a stranger on earth; do not hide your commands from me." It is a psalm for the convert and for children. Goodness is the milk that nurtures the child. They begin with this.

    [2Pe 1:5-8 NIV] "5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." You can see here the Food Pyramid of the Christian begins with the milk of goodness and progresses from there. As a person grows they become capable of tougher food, finally able to prepare food for others. That food is to do the will of the Father. They never stop in any of these, always practicing goodness and self control and love, only adding new things as they improve.

    Actions are stronger than words. Words we have aplenty, but actions are rare. Why? Why are the children starving themselves of good works?

    Its a proverb from "Agur son of Jakeh" who talks about 'El'. 'God' is a modern term. Sometimes it does not suit the scripture that it is projected onto, and in this case its better to refer to the lexicon and look for what Agur is saying. "Ask for the old paths" (Jeremiah 6:16) 'El' means many things, not only 'God'. It can translate to 'Judge' or to the concept of justice. Justice is center in the mind of the student of Moses law, and when he reads 'El' it comes to mind though he must use various means to parse the parshah. From whence does justice come? It comes from obedience to the commandment to judge fairly. Justice reigns supreme when the law is upheld. It is 'El'.

    [Pro 30:4 NIV] "4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know!" Here he is talking about Israel, the Son of El. In a similar way US ambassadors used to brag about the USA in other countries, before all the crap they did which embarrassed us. In Israel there was a great temple, and anyone including people from other countries could go there to settle disputes. It wasn't only Israelites who could inquire. Of course a foreigner could only enter the outer court, but they could seek that wisdom of justice from those who dedicated themselves to judging fairly. This caused Jews to have a reputation in the ancient middle east. The Greeks thought of them as philosophers, but they were pursuing justice.

    Who has gone up into heaven and come down? "Only the Son." It is an issued challenge. If you can bring justice down from heaven to Earth you will obtain the name "The Son."

    Paul says "We destroy arguments..." which probably ought to be rendered 'Quarrels'.

    This is a rebuke against all of us who won't put up with others that disagree. Sadly I count most Christians in this, because we lay down rules such that if people don't agree cannot be of God. We err in this, because no one is perfect in doctrine relative to God's perfection. It is a rebuke against many cardinals, popes, preachers, ministers, elders and all. All of us with our walls that we put up have divided Christ into cubes. We don't trust Christ, and our communion is not in his name but in our own names.

    I think this includes the people who won't deal with people they disagree with...and other things like social assumptions, government institutions... But on a personal level it is those who say things like "I'm not dealing with him since he thinks mental incompetents don't deserve to go to heaven." or "I'm not dealing with him because he thinks the trinity is so damned important" or "He thinks the resurrection is silly." These are relatively unimportant to God, because they are the opinions of people. Knowledge puffs up but love builds up. Love is the path to knowledge not the reverse. Lots of people are smart as hell and mean as scorpions; but Christians are supposed to be clever as serpents and innocent as doves.

    Actually it says Jesus is the life and that life is the light of men. It then says that the word is tabernacled among us, giving us the power to become sons of God.

    You and I are in human form, too! Perhaps we also should not count equality with God a thing to be grasped. Then if we live like him perhaps we can share in his reward.
     
  12. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    He has so much in store for us who are in Christ Jesus!
    “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”
    ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:1-22‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.”
    ‭‭I Peter‬ ‭2:9-10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
     
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