Do religious people get it backwards?

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

Yes! Agreed. So... where are we even still at odds here?

Because I consider the subjective physical and natural. You apparently don't. We are doing philosophy right now.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Because I consider the subjective physical and natural. You apparently don't. We are doing philosophy right now.

Natural, yes. A mind/consciousness and its meandering over the objective stimulus it is presented (aka "reality") is an entirely natural occurrence.

As far as being "physical" - I am not sure how I feel about that. The processes supporting the development of any given thought are certainly present and accounted for in the physical world - but the thought itself? If we define the thought as the energy skipping along the firing neurons, then sure... but there seems to be more to it than that. There is a level of abstraction from the substrate of the brain when a "thought" is come to or is being processed, etc. Our interpretive mechanisms allow us to treat it differently than the physical objects in play around us. But that, again, is a purely subjective exercise - requiring that abstract layer of processing in the mind - and requiring the mind's interpretation and continued diligence to preserve the brain/mind continuum. A "thought" doesn't necessarily have an objective existence. It is for the thinker, and the thinker alone. Hence the reason we must necessarily rely on communication to share our thoughts with one another.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Natural, yes. A mind/consciousness and its meandering over the objective stimulus it is presented (aka "reality") is an entirely natural occurrence.

As far as being "physical" - I am not sure how I feel about that. The processes supporting the development of any given thought are certainly present and accounted for in the physical world - but the thought itself? If we define the thought as the energy skipping along the firing neurons, then sure... but there seems to be more to it than that. There is a level of abstraction from the substrate of the brain when a "thought" is come to or is being processed, etc. Our interpretive mechanisms allow us to treat it differently than the physical objects in play around us. But that, again, is a purely subjective exercise - requiring that abstract layer of processing in the mind - and requiring the mind's interpretation and continued diligence to preserve the brain/mind continuum. A "thought" doesn't necessarily have an objective existence. It is for the thinker, and the thinker alone. Hence the reason we must necessarily rely on communication to share our thoughts with one another.

Can you for a moment go full physical? The mind itself and its contents are epiphenomenal. If you don't do that you have ontological dualism and even worse idealism.

I mean, I have been doing this for over 20 years now and most of the time as an atheist and naturalist. I can still do that. But one thing, I have never been able to get rid of, is subjectivism.
So are you willing to play a game with me? If yes, I can show you, how the subjective is natural and physical.
You just have to admit to 2 ideas: The mind and its contents are epiphenomenal and what goes on, are natural, physical, chemical and biological processes in brains.
Then I can show you that some of the processes are subjective.