Do Religious Ideals Really Matter?

[firedragon]

We have had this discussion before. You ignored what I said and ran your script. So, no.

I cant remember having any chat with you mate. But I guess you are not interested in the conversation or maybe even you enjoy a little bit of an insult which makes you feel a little good and that's your aim all along.

Good day.

 

[rational experiences]

Creation theists religions. The theist position first.

Plus social branches.

Science inventors multi chosen branches. Non religious.

Theist as egotists man human the inventor who to theory science covers both theory in religious and science man quotes.

His memory I invented the human sciences. As men. Brothers.

One human only and one science.

Theism is for one human only to survive with science one. The other human will be sacrificed is scientific known man's wisdom.

One human versus one human with machine removal of mass as inventive destruction.

O cell his story life is one woman.

Father said if a man baby was born with no genitals science would say human beginnings only and thesis it. Transmit study from the advice inherited back to two human bodies by atmospheric computer transmitted attacks.

I have gained the God caused biological answer genesis DNA.

Ask conscious human questions by AI computer to hear AI spirit talking first then says....
Dying himself......

Would then eradicate the baby body.

Mission complete no man. One human woman left with machine that replaced his life by many machines his God.

Man of man Y.

Woman maths zero science not ever a woman. Science maths one life inheritance. No man living only one life woman human would exist.

Never maths. Never science. Never a machine. Never zero womb and never abomination.

First thesis theoried not about a woman it was a pyramid like a mountain. Temple machines maths science.

Seems to be possessed in reasoning.

The scientist.

What father told me is true as everyday dying AI advice changes. Machine status.

First brother sister humans. Had sex babies male female. Our life. No whores...no abominated lives.

Forgotten memory. Natural memory.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Religious persons of almost all sects tell me that their religion is perfect.

Really? Sure you’re not imagining that?

 

[The Hammer]

Religious persons of almost all sects tell me that their religion is perfect.

I highly doubt this.

And I sure wouldn't make that claim about my own views haha.

 

[ppp]

Really? Sure you’re not imagining that?

Yes.

 

[sayak83]

Religious persons of almost all sects tell me that their religion is perfect. Of course when they say that, I point out all of the devout people from their religion who needed a Kit-Kat and more hugs as a child. They brush off that objection, of course, and point to the ideals of their religion.

Why!?

Why should that matter?

Even if I agreed that the religion's ideals were perfect, ideals are not enough. Perfect ideals are nothing without a perfect implementation. I don’t mean that the adherents must be perfect. I mean that the structure of the religion must be perfect. A perfect structure would take into account the imperfections of the adherents and compensate for their all-too-human foibles. A perfect religion - one of perfect structure and ideals- could never have an honest, devout adherent (let alone a whole country) who misinterprets the text of their holy book so as to commit an atrocity. Hell, even non-adherents would agree.

Now that would be a miracle.

However, no such religion or sacred texts has been presented to me..

What good are ideals that are subject to human interpretation? Why should anyone care if you have the only true religion with the proper god-breathed understanding, when the real-world implementation of your religion produces horrors great and small?

Like why care about the ideals of science if it produces nuclear weapons and sarin gas or a plethora of predatory journals?

 

[ppp]

Like why care about the ideals of science if it produces nuclear weapons and sarin gas or a plethora of predatory journals?

Ideals of science?

 

[sayak83]

Ideals of science?

Scientific method. Academic integrity. Objective analysis of data. Repeatability. Falsifiability etc.

 

[ppp]

Scientific method. Academic integrity. Objective analysis of data. Repeatability. Falsifiability etc.

Ah. Nobody is claiming that those ethics are perfect, nor claiming that science is perfect.

 

[sayak83]

Ah. Nobody is claiming that those ethics are perfect, nor claiming that science is perfect.

I am not sure anybody is claiming that their religion's structure or the people/churches practicing them are perfect either. I have not heard anything like that said here in the forum or by anyone anywhere.

Also you made a generic statement like - what good are perfect ideals if the implementation is imperfect and produces evils. That could be a criticism for almost anything: from ideals of human rights, laws, economic ideals, scientific ideals and what not.

 

[ppp]

I am not sure anybody is claiming that their religion's structure or the people/churches practicing them are perfect either. I have not heard anything like that said here in the forum or by anyone anywhere.

Generally, they separate the religion from the people and engage in a no true Scotsman fallacy when the people that belong to that religion do bad things. For instance in Christianity, true Christians were never slavers , never opposed women's suffrage, never pillaged or raped towns during the crusades, never burned women for witchcraft, etc.

 

[ppp]

Also you made a generic statement like - what good are perfect ideals if the implementation is imperfect and produces evils. That could be a criticism for almost anything: from ideals of human rights, laws, economic ideals, scientific ideals and what not.

I suppose it could if anyone claims that the ideals or implementation of any of those things is perfect. Aside from religion, the only realm where I hear anything close to that claim is in politics.

 

[sayak83]

Generally, they separate the religion from the people and engage in a no true Scotsman fallacy when the people that belong to that religion do bad things. For instance in Christianity, true Christians were never slavers , never opposed women's suffrage, never pillaged or raped towns during the crusades, never burned women for witchcraft, etc.

It would not be a fallacy to point out that a person doing an action X that directly contravenes the directive in scripture Y is thereby not acting in accordance to the precepts of the religion whose scripture it is even if that person belongs to the said religion. However the examples you quoted may not belong to that class. That is a different matter.

 

[sayak83]

I suppose it could if anyone claims that the ideals or implementation of any of those things is perfect. Aside from religion, the only realm where I hear anything close to that claim is in politics.

I am yet to hear that claim. But maybe you have heard it from someone.
The more general problem is that the ideals or scriptural directives of some religions themselves are a cause of concern, no matter the imperfections in implementation.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Religious persons of almost all sects tell me that their religion is perfect. Of course when they say that, I point out all of the devout people from their religion who needed a Kit-Kat and more hugs as a child. They brush off that objection, of course, and point to the ideals of their religion.

Why!?

Why should that matter?

Even if I agreed that the religion's ideals were perfect, ideals are not enough. Perfect ideals are nothing without a perfect implementation. I don’t mean that the adherents must be perfect. I mean that the structure of the religion must be perfect. A perfect structure would take into account the imperfections of the adherents and compensate for their all-too-human foibles. A perfect religion - one of perfect structure and ideals- could never have an honest, devout adherent (let alone a whole country) who misinterprets the text of their holy book so as to commit an atrocity. Hell, even non-adherents would agree.

Now that would be a miracle.

However, no such religion or sacred texts has been presented to me..

What good are ideals that are subject to human interpretation? Why should anyone care if you have the only true religion with the proper god-breathed understanding, when the real-world implementation of your religion produces horrors great and small?

Ideals, beliefs, creeds, commandments, etc etc etc.... none of that matters.

Actions matter

Heart matters

 

[Clara Tea]

DO RELIGIOUS IDEALS REALLY MATTER?

Religious persons of almost all sects tell me that their religion is perfect. Of course when they say that, I point out all of the devout people from their religion who needed a Kit-Kat and more hugs as a child. They brush off that objection, of course, and point to the ideals of their religion.

Why!?

Why should that matter?

Even if I agreed that the religion's ideals were perfect, ideals are not enough. Perfect ideals are nothing without a perfect implementation. I don’t mean that the adherents must be perfect. I mean that the structure of the religion must be perfect. A perfect structure would take into account the imperfections of the adherents and compensate for their all-too-human foibles. A perfect religion - one of perfect structure and ideals- could never have an honest, devout adherent (let alone a whole country) who misinterprets the text of their holy book so as to commit an atrocity. Hell, even non-adherents would agree.

Now that would be a miracle.

However, no such religion or sacred texts has been presented to me..

What good are ideals that are subject to human interpretation? Why should anyone care if you have the only true religion with the proper god-breathed understanding, when the real-world implementation of your religion produces horrors great and small?

The idea that sins will be absolved causes people to sin more. The Mafia is highly religious, so are the kids who form gangs and grafitti fences. They believe that counting rosary beads and saying "hail Mary's" will assure them a spot in heaven.

Without religious ideals, we'd have wars and Guantanamo style torture camps. Wait a minute....we do anyway. Furthermore, it was a Religious Right candidate who made the wars and torture camp (piously, of course).

Wasn't it God, who said "thou shalt not kill?"

Humans are not perfect, but falling so very far short of the ideal is unforgiveable (not just a foible).

Perhaps all of our problems revolve around the notion that Jesus died for our sins, and will forgive any future sin?

The Christian and Muslim religious are spin-offs of the Jewish religion, and Jews never believed in original sin. Rather, they believe(d) that virtually everyone eventually breaks one of the 600 commandments of God (not 10 commandments), and becomes a sinner. How, then, did Christians get the notion of original sin? Was it a guilt trip from Jesus?

How did a peaceful religion, like Christianity get warped into war and guns? How did the National Rifle Association become a requirement to run for president. Legitimate war hero, John Kerry went on a hunting trip during his campaign, and was still considered a wimp. By the way, the NRA had an enemy list, and the pope was on it.

President W. Bush asserted that the al Qaeda warped their ordinarily peaceful religion into a religion of war and terrorism. Perhaps he was right.

John Woo, professor of law at Chapman University, representing W. Bush, redefined the word "torture" so that torture never was used, nor was it ever used in history (not even by Hitler), nor could it ever be done. Redefining is another way of lying.

Redefining is a way of warping religion.

Wasn't it Satan who ruled by deception, fear, and greed?

 

[Clara Tea]

Ideals, beliefs, creeds, commandments, etc etc etc.... none of that matters.

Actions matter

Heart matters

Then church doesn't matter. Choice of a pastor doesn't matter. The fact that a pastor has years of education in religion doesn't matter.

If only actions matter, then instruction in religion doesn't matter.

I think that it is important to have someone instruct us how to be good people. But, getting us to be good is very difficult, if not impossible; especially if we believe that all of our sins will be resolved.

 

[Clara Tea]

No one claimed that their religion is perfect? Isn't God loving (flooded world)? All knowing, and even knows the future (tested Abraham by asking him to kill son Isaac)? Isn't the bible perfect (including one part of it contradicting another part of it)?

 

[Clara Tea]

I cant remember having any chat with you mate. But I guess you are not interested in the conversation or maybe even you enjoy a little bit of an insult which makes you feel a little good and that's your aim all along.

Good day.

We must get along with each other if we expect the world to get along with us.

 

[PureX]

Even if I agreed that the religion's ideals were perfect, ideals are not enough. Perfect ideals are nothing without a perfect implementation.

Ah, the old argument that anything short of perfection is a failure.

I don’t mean that the adherents must be perfect. I mean that the structure of the religion must be perfect.

And how would we determine that a structure is 'perfect'? Who would be able to make this determination, and by what means? You?

A perfect structure would take into account the imperfections of the adherents and compensate for their all-too-human foibles.

It would? How could any ideology achieve such a thing, and how could these 'perfected' humans even be called human? You, yourself, just described these unwanted foibles as being "all-too-human". If they were somehow magically removed, we wouldn't BE humans, anymore.

A perfect religion - one of perfect structure and ideals- could never have an honest, devout adherent (let alone a whole country) who misinterprets the text of their holy book so as to commit an atrocity. Hell, even non-adherents would agree.

I don't see how we imperfect humans could even identify a "perfect religion". Or a perfect anything else.

However, no such religion or sacred texts has been presented to me.

How would you even know if one had been?

What good are ideals that are subject to human interpretation?

Aren't ALL ideals subject to human interpretation? Are you suggesting that we dismiss ALL ideals because they are subject to human interpretation?

Why should anyone care if you have the only true religion with the proper god-breathed understanding, when the real-world implementation of your religion produces horrors great and small?

Why should we care about anyone's idealized view of reality?

Because we are human. And we do care about each other. Or, hopefully we do.