Disagreeing with the Church

[Antiochian]

Is it possible to be a faithful Orthodox yet not totally agree with all church teaching?

I don't mean on the big stuff, such as Christology, ecclesiology, or soteriology... but say, being an Orthodox while not agreeing with an exclusively male priesthood, or not agreeing with official positions on ecumenism (depending on your jurisdiction), or disagreeing with priests who say you should never pray with non-Orthodox.

Kind of like how many faithful RC's disagree with teaching on birth control as a matter of conscience... So, to return to the example: if I were an Orthodox who believed in the truth of this faith, in Christ as the way to salvation, and in trying to live a holy life as far as possible, but in conscience couldn't agree with the male-only priesthood. Am I really Orthodox? Am I jeopardizing my soul?

I realize that faithfulness to tradition and authority are important, but are Orthodox also encouraged to think for themselves? Because I don't believe Christ was asking for blind obedience.

 

[Yoshieslunchbox]

I realize that faithfulness to tradition and authority are important, but are Orthodox also encouraged to think for themselves?

The answer to that is likely to depend on who you ask. In Eastern Orthodoxy, like any organization, there are die-hard authoritarians and others who espouse laxer views. The jurisdiction you belong to will vary in official stance on certain aspects of tradition (ROCOR Old Believers), theological concepts (ecumenism), or cultural attitudes (old-country nationalism). Most will not differ much in the dogma accepted by the Orthodox as a whole. You'll find a greater acceptance for individualism and interpretation in groups like the OCA or the Antiochian churches than in those run by groups like ROCOR.

For instance, this excerpt written by Alexi Khomiakov will be typical of the more hard-lined Orthodox response.

Wherefore the Church has not been, nor could she be, changed or obscured, nor could she have fallen away, for then she would have been deprived of the spirit of truth. It is impossible that there should have been a time when she could have received error into her bosom, or when the laity, presbyters, and bishops had submitted to instructions or teaching inconsistent with the teaching and spirit of Christ.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/church_is_one_e.htm

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is slightly less rigid on the matter but comes up with something similar:

In some cases the controversial issues can be addressed from long-standing doctrinal, ethical and canonical traditions. Where this is the case, there is little or no debate in the Church.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101


The Church would probably ask you why you think yourself to be smarter than all it's years of Holy Spirit-inspired tradition.

Am I really Orthodox? Am I jeopardizing my soul?

These are questions you can only answer yourself. If your opinions differ drastically from those generally accepted by the members of the faith then you may want to ask yourself why you are coming up with such different conclusions. One or two minor divergences may not be problematic, but they may also point to deep philosophical differences of opinion.

Also, it's nice to see somebody posting on the Orthodox forum for a change!

 

[Antiochian]

Thanks for the response! I belonged to and was active in the Greek Orthodox church for years, but I fell away. Every now and again, I think of coming back, but find that there are some things the Church teaches I simply cannot accept. Therefore, I imagine I will not be welcome, certainly not to the sacraments, anyway. And so I reason I'm better off staying away.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, even though my post above may seem such. I'm just honestly asking whether we must accept everything the Church tells us without giving it a thought if we are to be Orthodox in good standing? Again, I'm not talking Christology or any of the really big stuff.

Part of my problem was my relationship with a spiritual father who was at times very hurtful. I won't go into details, but he was part of why I quit going to church, and we haven't talked in several years. Now, after being away so long, I'm not sure there's even a place for me in Orthodoxy anymore. And that makes me sad, but I've expored other churches and my beliefs have changed--and if I'm to be honest, I can't call myself Orthodox at this point. I do miss the liturgy, and some of the people from my old church--others not so much.

I saw so much hypocrisy in the Church, and it had a terrible effect on my once-solid faith. And we're talking hypocrisy at the hierarchical level, not just a couple of quarrelsome parish council members. My friend who is my former priest's daughter experienced this, too, and is now a Muslim.

I think this post is going off topic, but thought I'd just lay it out there for anyone who cared or could relate, and wish to address any part or all of this. I don't know if I'll ever be able to go to Divine Liturgy again, or if they'd even want me there. I have no plans of "reverting" to the church any time soon, but as I said, it's the liturgy I miss more than anything.

 

[Smoke]

Is it possible to be a faithful Orthodox yet not totally agree with all church teaching?

I don't mean on the big stuff, such as Christology, ecclesiology, or soteriology... but say, being an Orthodox while not agreeing with an exclusively male priesthood, or not agreeing with official positions on ecumenism (depending on your jurisdiction), or disagreeing with priests who say you should never pray with non-Orthodox.

Kind of like how many faithful RC's disagree with teaching on birth control as a matter of conscience... So, to return to the example: if I were an Orthodox who believed in the truth of this faith, in Christ as the way to salvation, and in trying to live a holy life as far as possible, but in conscience couldn't agree with the male-only priesthood. Am I really Orthodox? Am I jeopardizing my soul?

I realize that faithfulness to tradition and authority are important, but are Orthodox also encouraged to think for themselves? Because I don't believe Christ was asking for blind obedience.

The Church's positions on women and gay people were among the reasons I left the Church. It is certainly possible to be Orthodox without believing in the necessity of the all-male priesthood. The question is whether one can live with it or not. Can you belong to a church in which that is the unchallenged rule? Same with the other issues. If you think it's simply a matter of opinion, in which your opinion differs from the practice of the Church, that's one thing. If you think it's a matter of principle, that's another.

 

[Smoke]

it's the liturgy I miss more than anything.

Me too. And there's not really any substitute for it in Western Christianity.

 

[Renji]

Atleast you're not alone. I also don't agree with one teaching of my church. Their teachings on the use of contraceptives...

 

[Yoshieslunchbox]

Me too. And there's not really any substitute for it in Western Christianity.

The liturgy is beautiful. It's also what I miss the most. I will say that the Tridentine Mass is comparable in it's beauty, as well as the simplicity of the Carthusian Mass. The old Stowe Missal is wonderful even if incomplete, and the Sarum Old Rite is also worth looking at if rituals interest you.

 

[Yoshieslunchbox]

Thanks for the response! I belonged to and was active in the Greek Orthodox church for years, but I fell away. Every now and again, I think of coming back, but find that there are some things the Church teaches I simply cannot accept. Therefore, I imagine I will not be welcome, certainly not to the sacraments, anyway. And so I reason I'm better off staying away.

That's the story of a lot of Orthodox these days. The Church claims it is grounded in eternal truth, but it's just another organization like any other centered around religion. I was very active in the ROCOR for a long time, but fell away for similar reasons and can't reconcile my own beliefs with that of the church. In the end all you can do is be happy for the experiences you received in the past that led you to becoming who you are today. You may not be closer to having all the answers, but you know where you don't fit in and that's progress!

 

[Antiochian]

Speaking of beautiful worship, the Ethiopian Orthodox liturgy, with the dancing, clapping, and drumming, oh, it's heavenly! Never been to a Tridentine mass. And I've always wanted to see a Coptic and Maronite liturgy. I imagine they must be lovely, too. And to hear the monks of Valaam chant... every now and then, I have to play their CD. Even now from a distance, the Christian East fascinates me.

Smoke, I hear you on the gay thing. After being told you're sick over and over, that has a terrible effect on a person. People--psychologists, friends, etc.--told me I was perfectly fine as I was, and I refused to believe them; they were deluded and trying to steer me away from salvation, I reasoned. It took a long time for me to accept myself, but once I did, it was like a floodgate opened. And my faith in the Church just flickered out.

So, to just put it out on the table, no more hiding or dancing around--can one be gay and Orthodox? Openly, proudly gay? I think the vast majority of Orthodox would agree with my opinion--no.

 

[Smoke]

So, to just put it out on the table, no more hiding or dancing around--can one be gay and Orthodox? Openly, proudly gay? I think the vast majority of Orthodox would agree with my opinion--no.

No.

If you want to receive Communion, you must essentially make a false Confession. If you want to be open, you will not be allowed to commune.

Difficult as it is, you must choose.

 

[Yoshieslunchbox]

So, to just put it out on the table, no more hiding or dancing around--can one be gay and Orthodox? Openly, proudly gay? I think the vast majority of Orthodox would agree with my opinion--no.

No. There is no Orthodox jurisdiction that would allow you to participate in the sacraments as an openly gay homosexual. Additionally, you would be told that your homosexuality is a sin and a threat to the salvation of your soul. Unfortunately, the nature of who you are wouldn't be accepted.

 

[Antiochian]

Yeah, pretty much thought so. So in other words, I made the right decision by leaving. I tried to pray it away. Didn't work. Why be a part of a group like that? I voted with my feet. The Church isn't my judge. God is.

 

[Yoshieslunchbox]

The Church isn't my judge. God is.

:clap

 

[davidthegreek]

No.

If you want to receive Communion, you must essentially make a false Confession. If you want to be open, you will not be allowed to commune.

Difficult as it is, you must choose.

if I made a false confession that would make a hypocrite not worthy of the holy communion of christ. If I were open then I would not be allowed. I would be a sinner in both cases. which is better though? It matters to me that I am right or close to right at least, with God above all.

 

[Shiranui117]

I'm just going to note that, from an Orthodox perspective, there's nothing wrong with being homosexual in and of itself. Those who would tell you otherwise are getting their opinions from prejudice, not the teaching of the Church. In any Orthodox document concerning homosexuality, you will never see the mere state of being homosexual condemned. It's only homosexual acts that are ever spoken against. I feel the discrimination against gays is not a product of the Church, but a product of the cultures of the people within the Church.

Likewise with women: They may not be able to be ordained priests. but if you try telling the women in charge of the parish council, setting up all the non-liturgical functions of the Church, directing the choir, etc. that they have no authority, you'll be in a heap of trouble Also never forget that in the Soviet Union, it was the old women who kept Orthodoxy afloat during the persecutions.

 

[davidthegreek]

I'm just going to note that, from an Orthodox perspective, there's nothing wrong with being homosexual in and of itself. Those who would tell you otherwise are getting their opinions from prejudice, not the teaching of the Church. In any Orthodox document concerning homosexuality, you will never see the mere state of being homosexual condemned. It's only homosexual acts that are ever spoken against. I feel the discrimination against gays is not a product of the Church, but a product of the cultures of the people within the Church.

Likewise with women: They may not be able to be ordained priests. but if you try telling the women in charge of the parish council, setting up all the non-liturgical functions of the Church, directing the choir, etc. that they have no authority, you'll be in a heap of trouble Also never forget that in the Soviet Union, it was the old women who kept Orthodoxy afloat during the persecutions.

are certain homosexual acts spoken of against. Or Homosexual acts altogether?

 

[Shiranui117]

are certain homosexual acts spoken of against. Or Homosexual acts altogether?

It depends what acts you have in mind? Anything of a sexual nature is a no-go.

 

[davidthegreek]

It depends what acts you have in mind? Anything of a sexual nature is a no-go.

Cuddling, kissing. I am certainly not talking about orgies which I hate the thought of.

 

[Shiranui117]

Cuddling, kissing. I am certainly not talking about orgies which I hate the thought of.

As long as no lust is triggered by this, I'm not too sure. I think there can be some leeway with that case, personally, but I'm not sure such a position is in full agreement with the Church.