1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Differences between research reports and religious scriptures?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Jim, Jan 16, 2020.

  1. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    Sometimes when I post about people misusing research reports in the same harmful ways that they use religious scriptures, people promoting and defending science beliefs respond by pointing out differences between science and religion, which I don’t see as relevant to what I’m saying. I’ve started wondering though, about how much and what kinds of differences there actually are, between research reports and religious scriptures. Here are some differences that I see:
    - Imagining any aim or purpose behind anything that happens is is stigmatized in the sciences.
    - Maybe as a consequence of that, research reports mostly use mechanistic models and metaphors, and sometimes get tangled up in trying to explain how things could happen randomly and accidentally.
    - There usually isn’t any doubt about who are the authors of a research report, although actually there have been false claims sometimes.
    - Research reports are mostly about what happens, and how it happens, as a result of what happens before that. Religious scriptures are mostly about how to live our lives, to bring out the best possibilities in people, in society and in the world around us.

    It seems ironic to me for people to imagine the universe as being like a machine, and at the same time scoff at people for imagining that it was created by someone with some purpose in mind.
     
  2. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    29,696
    Ratings:
    +11,724
    Religion:
    Philosophical Buddhism
    A good research report gets put foreward to be brutally ripped to shreds through the crucible of peer review.

    The Bible won't survive that process.
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Like Like x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    Actually, the same thing happens sometimes with religious scriptures when they first appear, except that sometimes it isn’t only the scriptures that get brutally ripped to shreds, it’s also the people who promote them.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    Actually it did survive a process much more brutal than that. It was not only the words of Jesus that were brutally ripped to shreds. Sometimes the people promoting them were brutally ripped to shreds. You might not think that actually happened, but I don’t think there’s any controversy about what has happened with Baha’i scriptures. They, and sometimes the people promoting them, have been brutally ripped to shreds, and those scriptures have survived and thrived.
     
    #4 Jim, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    Another difference that I see is that most people will never have the training and the resources that they would need, to validate what research reports are saying, about how things work. Anyone in any circumstances can verify for themselves how well it works to try to understand and apply what religious scriptures are saying about the best way to live our lives.
     
  6. Mindmaster

    Mindmaster Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Messages:
    5,695
    Ratings:
    +2,929
    Religion:
    It's complicated.
    Not really, see global warming -- opps, I mean -- climate change, lol.

    See also: The tilted weirdness with reclassifying gender dysphoria and other mental conditions as "ok" or normal in psychology. :D

    Sometimes, a small cadre of ***-hats gets together and just makes some stuff up.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    Also, drug marketing propaganda masquerading as research.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    They left some loopholes though, for people to get the help they really need if they want to.
     
  9. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,104
    Ratings:
    +2,400
    Religion:
    None
    There are no similarities. Scientific research has nothing to do with religion and scripture has nothing to do with science. There is no justification to even talk about them in the same context (beyond actual religious studies of course).

    There is nothing ironic about that because one is an abstract metaphor while the other is presented as literal truth. Your attempt to support your religious beliefs by discrediting science is transparent.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    24,465
    Ratings:
    +11,590
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    So you're saying they're non-overlapping magisteria? Non-overlapping magisteria - Wikipedia
    If different magisteria, why do you keep insinuating religion into the objective reality described by science?
    Why ironic? One is reasonable and evidence based. The other built on sand; a product of ignorance and personal incredulity.

    Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia
    Argument from incredulity - RationalWiki
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  11. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    No.
    Because the machines that the analogy is based on are all created by people, with specific purposes in mind. If it’s useful to imagine the universe as being like a giant machine, then why not take the analogy to its logical conclusion, and imagine that the machine was created and is being operated with some specific purposes in some mind?
     
    #11 Jim, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  12. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    23,583
    Ratings:
    +9,892
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    Neither Ketáb-e Íqán or Qu'an.
    Shredding of people is not humane even if they keep quoting their books on internet. It is irritating but it could be somebody's livelihood. If an untruth is spoken a thousand times, it becomes truth. There are enough fools in the world.
    Sure, People would accept peer-review only from the experts in that field. The problem with scriptures is that they plagiarize. Nothing new is said but what is said is claimed as something unique and world-changingly new.
     
    #12 Aupmanyav, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  13. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    But they did survive that process. Not only that process, but also the process of many people being tortured and killed for promoting them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Asinine, socialist-leaning, puerile filth
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    6,420
    Ratings:
    +2,928
    Religion:
    The one we are born with; therefore being none.
    Because science aims to be impartial and to reflect reality - such that drawing a conclusion before examining the facts is frowned upon?
    Because evidently that is a possibility, unless one believes that every earthquake, volcanic eruption, tsunami, etc., has some cause other than being a natural event and part of our existence on this planet. And the same applies all too often to events caused or experienced by us as humans.
    Humans mess up all the time - so what's new?
    You mean they are about different things. Well, who would have guessed.
    No evidence for any designer (a rational one, at least) so why would we?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  15. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    23,583
    Ratings:
    +9,892
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    I do not think that is correct, HonestJoe, there are religious views that go hand-in-hand with science.Perhaps you have not come across them.
    Universe is a product of 'chaos', 'randomness', 'uncertainty', probability'. It has no purpose.
    I have already said that there are enough fools in the world who accept the existence of ghosts and spirits, or in Loch Ness monster or visiting aliens. If people got tortured and killed, it was their choice to do what they could have avoided in their environment.
     
    #15 Aupmanyav, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
    • Useful Useful x 1
  16. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    24,465
    Ratings:
    +11,590
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    Just because machine complexity arises from intentional design doesn't mean complex "design" can't arise unintentionally, by the natural, unguided mechanisms science has been describing for a hundred years or more. Again, you're arguing from incredulity.

    Your proposal: Goddidit, isn't an explanation. It doesn't propose a mechanism, much less test it. It's an untestable assertion of agency. You're comparing apples and oranges.

    What evidence do you have that complexity can't arise naturally? Science has volumes of observed examples of this, with testable, falsifiable, explanations of the mechanisms involved. Where do you find fault in these?
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Useful Useful x 1
  17. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Asinine, socialist-leaning, puerile filth
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    6,420
    Ratings:
    +2,928
    Religion:
    The one we are born with; therefore being none.
    But can they verify the provenance, authenticity, and surety that nothing has been added/struck out over time from such sources that relate to their authority - apart from this, we might just assume it is the opinion of any particular writer(s).
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  18. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    I’m not saying that complexity can’t arise naturally. I think that everything that happens, happens naturally.
     
  19. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    23,583
    Ratings:
    +9,892
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    Ah! I know this line. Muslims also say that. Everything happened naturally but at the prodding of Allah.
     
  20. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    You might have missed my point.
     
Loading...