Did the Exodus occur?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Again: let's get back to your assertion that "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt".

 

[Agnostic75]

Here it is: The Exodus is not Fiction

For purposes of this thread, my main interest is whether or not God caused the Exodus, and the Ten Plagues to occur. Are you aware of any credible evidence that God had anything to do with the Exodus, and the Ten Plagues? Nothing in the article that you mentioned says that God had anything to do with the Exodus, and the Ten Plagues.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Are you aware of any credible evidence that God had anything to do with the Exodus, ...

Any evidence would have to be circumstantial. So, for example, it is hard for me to imagine Charlton Heston rising to prominence without divine intervention.

 

[nazz]

Nazz, the level of evidence you're asking for would invalidate every history textbook written. Of course the possibility exists that a small group of Semitic slaves left Egypt and that their foundation myth was adapted by Judah, but there is absolutely no evidence of this. On the other hand,there is copious evidence of one group of Canaanites splitting off, evolving a separate culture, and becoming Hebrews.

Thank you. I'll take that as a retraction of your earlier statement

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thank you. I'll take that as a retraction of your earlier statement

No. This …

The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt.

Of course the possibility exists that a small group of Semitic slaves left Egypt and that their foundation myth was adapted by Judah, but there is absolutely no evidence of this.

… is just mantra bolstered by confirmation bias.

 

[outhouse]

…… is just mantra bolstered by confirmation bias.

Wrong again.



I also see you running from evidence posted by those far exceeding your knowledge. Finklestein and Hawass both claim Israelites were never in Egypt.

 

[outhouse]

For purposes of this thread, my main interest is whether or not God caused the Exodus, and the Ten Plagues to occur. .

The only way to determine that is to understand the historicity of the events first.

 

[technomage]

Thanks for sharing. But (speaking of problematic) let's get back to your assertion that "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt".

What evidence do you want, Jay? We have the language connection to the Canaanites. We can see the point at which the Hebrews started separating from the Canaanites and forming their own culture--the pottery is completely derivative from Canaanite styles, with no dependence whatsoever of Egyptian pottery. We see the development of pork agriculture in Israel and in the non-Hebrew portions of Canaan, but not in Judah. We have record of the development of circumcision, and of its eventual adoption even by the Philistines.

_If_ there was a substantial Hebrew presence in Egypt, there would be clear and significant evidence in text and archaeology ... there is not. But there is clear evidence of the history that demonstrates that some of the Canaanites drifted away from Canaanite culture and language and became Hebrew--but that for the entire length of this process, they lived in Canaan.

Friedman does not argue that the Hebrews were in Egypt--instead, he argues that a small group of Levites were in Egypt. The problem is, Friedman is ONLY looking at the evidence that supports his hypothesis, and is not considering any of the evidence that contradicts him.

(Note: To discuss the next part, I must use a variant form of a Name that I know religious Jews normally do not type out, and that I normally omit in Jewish contexts out of respect. My apologies if there is any offense, but no disrespect is intended.)

Friedman's worst error is to ignore the Canaanite connection of Yahweh and El. We have Canaanites worshiping Yahweh dating from the 14th century BCE in Edom, Moab, and Midian. You have non -Semitic engravings in Egypt that note this worship (from the reign of Amenhotep III). You have texts that normally would have "El and his Asherah" replaced with "Yahweh and his Asherah" all over the place, some from before the Hebrews developed as a culture, some from after.

Yet contrary to Friedman's argument, you have _nothing_ in Egypt. Even Friedman's proposed etymology for Moses is wrong: contra Friedman (and contra Josephus), Moses comes from a Hebrew word for the passive sense of "drawn out." The word has clearly established roots through the Ugaritic and Canaanite vocabularies--NOT to Egyptian. The equivalent, "sound-alike" word in Egyptian is "mose," a suffix meaning "Born of." Compare Thutmose ("Born of Thoth"), Ammose ("Born of the moon") or Amunmose ("Born of Amun").

Jay, there is a figurative metric crap-ton of evidence supporting the arguments above. I realize at this point you probably want to see the documentation, not just my summaries. Where would you like to start?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What evidence do you want, Jay? We have the language connection to the Canaanites. We can see the point at which the Hebrews started separating from the Canaanites and forming their own culture--the pottery is completely derivative from Canaanite styles, with no dependence whatsoever of Egyptian pottery.

Rubbish. There is an extensive discussion of pottery in Faust (which you've probably never read). But you are welcome to your dogma.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jay, there is a figurative metric crap-ton of evidence supporting the arguments above. I realize at this point you probably want to see the documentation, not just my summaries. Where would you like to start?

No. In fact, I've probably read much of it. I simply want you to defend your preposterous assertion that "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt". Or, should you choose to do so, retract it.

 

[technomage]

Rubbish. There is an extensive discussion of pottery in Faust (which you've probably never read). But you are welcome to your dogma.

It's not my "dogma," Jay. It is the accepted scholarly consensus. But as you will.

 

[technomage]

No. In fact, I've probably read much of it. I simply want you to defend your preposterous assertion that "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt". Or, should you choose to do so, retract it.

You've already implied that I'm guilty of dishonesty. At this point, it seems the only thing you desire is to attack someone who disagrees with you. That's your choice. I will follow the evidence.

 

[Agnostic75]

Wrong again.

I also see you [Jayhawker Soule] running from evidence posted by those far exceeding your knowledge. Finkelstein and Hawass both claim Israelites were never in Egypt.

I just read an article about Finkelstein at Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein and his colleagues are stirring controversy with contentions that many biblical stories never. Part of the article says:

If Finkelstein is ready to concede the existence of David and Solomon, albeit as kinks of a small, marginal entity, when it comes to the exodus from Egypt he is absolute in his opinion. "There is no evidence that the Israelites were in Egypt, not the slightest, not the least bit of evidence. There are no clues, either archaeological or historical, to prove that the Israelites built monuments in Egypt, even though the biblical description of the famine in the Land of Israel may be accurate. We know from archaeology that there was a migration of Canaanites to Egypt in the first half of the second millennium BCE, that these migrants built communities in the area of the Nile Delta, and that the Egyptians afterward expelled them from there. Perhaps that is the ancient memory, I don't know. What I can say is that the story, in the form we have it, serves a later situation. It spoke to the exiles in Babylon and to those who returned from the exile. What the story told them is that exile is not the end of the world, it's possible to return, the deserts can be crossed, the land can be reconquered. That gave them hope."

The stories of the patriarchs, Finkelstein says - adding that today most scholars accept this view - are folklore about forefathers that the authors of the Bible in the seventh century salvaged from the mists of history in order to reinforce their hold on the cultural heritage. Scientific searches for them have produced nothing.

"Did these people ever exist? I don't know. They were primeval forbears, and the goal was to create a myth saying that Judah is the center of the world, of the Israelite way of life, against the background of the reality of the later kingdom."

So, if there were no patriarchs, maybe we don't have patriarchal rights?

"I am a great believer in a total separation between tradition and research. I myself have a warm spot in my heart for the Bible and its splendid stories. During our Pesach seder, my two girls, who are 11 and 7, didn't hear a word about the fact that there was no exodus from Egypt. When they are 25, we will tell them a different story. Belief, tradition and research are three parallel lines that can exist simultaneously. I don't see that as a gross contradiction."

An article at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/world/africa/03exodus.html?_r=0 discusses Hawass' objections to the Exodus.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's not my "dogma," Jay. It is the accepted scholarly consensus. But as you will.

That "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt" is accepted scholarly consensus? Really?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You've already implied that I'm guilty of dishonesty.

Did you read Faust and or Frendo? Would you care to reference specific chapters or subchapters with which you take issue and explain why?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I just read an article about Finkelstein at Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein and his colleagues are stirring controversy with contentions that many biblical stories never.

Oh my! May of 2003. Great quote mining!

 

[outhouse]

Oh my! May of 2003. Great quote mining!

There is a more recent review by Dever that goes into details.

Much more recent and states the same thing except add's the word fact.

 

[outhouse]

That "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt" is accepted scholarly consensus? Really?

Do you think being debated by apologetically biased people counts against the consensus ?

 

[Agnostic75]

Wrong again.

I also see you [Jayhawker Soule] running from evidence posted by those far exceeding your knowledge. Finkelstein and Hawass both claim Israelites were never in Egypt.

I just read an article about Finkelstein at Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein and his colleagues are stirring controversy with contentions that many biblical stories never. Part of the article says:

Quote:

If Finkelstein is ready to concede the existence of David and Solomon, albeit as kinks of a small, marginal entity, when it comes to the exodus from Egypt he is absolute in his opinion. "There is no evidence that the Israelites were in Egypt, not the slightest, not the least bit of evidence. There are no clues, either archaeological or historical, to prove that the Israelites built monuments in Egypt, even though the biblical description of the famine in the Land of Israel may be accurate. We know from archaeology that there was a migration of Canaanites to Egypt in the first half of the second millennium BCE, that these migrants built communities in the area of the Nile Delta, and that the Egyptians afterward expelled them from there. Perhaps that is the ancient memory, I don't know. What I can say is that the story, in the form we have it, serves a later situation. It spoke to the exiles in Babylon and to those who returned from the exile. What the story told them is that exile is not the end of the world, it's possible to return, the deserts can be crossed, the land can be reconquered. That gave them hope."

The stories of the patriarchs, Finkelstein says - adding that today most scholars accept this view - are folklore about forefathers that the authors of the Bible in the seventh century salvaged from the mists of history in order to reinforce their hold on the cultural heritage. Scientific searches for them have produced nothing.

"Did these people ever exist? I don't know. They were primeval forbears, and the goal was to create a myth saying that Judah is the center of the world, of the Israelite way of life, against the background of the reality of the later kingdom."

So, if there were no patriarchs, maybe we don't have patriarchal rights?

"I am a great believer in a total separation between tradition and research. I myself have a warm spot in my heart for the Bible and its splendid stories. During our Pesach seder, my two girls, who are 11 and 7, didn't hear a word about the fact that there was no exodus from Egypt. When they are 25, we will tell them a different story. Belief, tradition and research are three parallel lines that can exist simultaneously. I don't see that as a gross contradiction."

Oh my! May of 2003. Great quote mining!

Wikipedia defines quote mining as:

The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning. Contextomies are stereotypically intentional, but may also occur accidentally if someone misinterprets the meaning and omits something essential to clarifying it, thinking it non-essential.

Where did I quote mine Finkelstein's position on the Exodus? All that I did was quote the article.

Finkelstein co-wrote "The Bible Unearthed" with Neal Asher Silberman, a contributing editor to Archaeology Magazine. Wikipedia says:

"The Bible Unearthed was well received by biblical scholars and archaeologists."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Finkelstein co-wrote "The Bible Unearthed" with Neal Asher Silberman, a contributing editor to Archaeology Magazine. Wikipedia says:

"The Bible Unearthed was well received by biblical scholars and archaeologists."

Yes, I read it back when it was first published.

It's a good book. You should read it some time. (It'll be a start.) :yes: