Did the Exodus occur?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yeah, I'd LOVE to see that too!

I suspect that we'll soon be entertained with something akin to the following bit of circular reasoning …

There were NEVER Hebrews in Egypt!

But Egypt exerted extensive control over much of the Levant over large periods of time. There are clear records of Semitic peoples being shipped into Egypt.​

Yes, but these Semites WERE NOT Hebrews.

And how do you know that some of them did not self-identify as a group that would later be referred to as "Hebrew."​

Because there were NEVER Hebrews in Egypt.

Oh. Thanks for sharing.​

Just brilliant ...

 

[metis]

I cannot accept the literal interpretation of the Exodus narrative for a variety of reasons but I do believe it's at least hypothetically possible some of our people may have escaped from Egypt.

 

[Levite]

The "grain of truth" in the stories is thus: the Hebrew-speaking nations (both Israel and Judah) developed from, and separated from, indigenous Canaanite tribes. Israel developed in Iron Age II, during the 9th century BCE, and became a local power, competing with Egypt for economic and political power--not very successfully, but independent enough to survive as a culture and a nation. Judah developed somewhat later (emerging in the 9th century BCE), and enjoyed a relatively brief period as a semi-client state of Assyria, then of Babylon.

Many of the pericopes of the Exodus accounts come from Judah, and reflect the tension between Judah's economic and political dependence upon its northern neighbors and the sometimes-cold, sometimes hot relationship with Egypt, and to some extent with Israel. Indeed, most of the law narratives deal with Judahic concerns, not Israelite. Recent finds of both casually hunted and farm-raised pork in Israel sites demonstrate the prohibition against pork, for instance, was formalized first in Judah, with only limited acceptance in Israel. (The issue of abstinence from pork was not the sole province of Judah, as there are also several Aramaean sites with a complete absence of pork bones.)

Israel was destroyed in 722, its population deported and assimilated within Assyria. Judah attained regional dominance with the destruction of Israel, but wrebelled against the Neo-Babylonian empire and was destroyed in 586. However, unlike Israel, Judah retained cultural cohesiveness during the Babylonian captivity, and was allowed to return shortly after the Persians conquered the Neo-Babylonian empire.

Maybe. Maybe this does indeed describe part of what occurred. And maybe not.

The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt. There were no plagues, no Exodus, no wandering in the desert, no Conquest, and no United Monarchy.

There is simply insufficient evidence for you to conclude this, no more than for me to conclude the absolute opposite. You have a theory. Parts of it are persuasive. Parts are not. But you have no absolute proof one way or the other.

While there may not necessarily have been the complete national slavery and dramatic intervention by God described in the Bible, that is by no means the same thing as there never having been any Hebrews in Egypt, nor any conflict with the local Canaanite tribes as they entered the Land of Israel.

I tend to think it is much likelier that such pseudohistoriographical myths are the result of dramatically enhancing oral narratives for teaching purposes, together with
the consolidation and compression of characters and narratives during the composition of written texts, rather than simply pure fiction based on nothing whatsoever.

But in either case, it is simply insupportable to maintain that there is absolute and conclusive proof of any theory of events at this time, one way or another.

 

[technomage]

That statement is more than a little silly. You really don't seem to know what you don't know.

Jay, we _do_ know. This is not a case of absence of evidence, this is definite evidence of absence.

We can definitely dismiss the Exodus as written. We know what the agricultural output of the Nile valley was using the technology of the time, and the population levels discussed in the text were more than that area could even support. No distinct Hebrew culture or Hebrew language even existed at that time--not in Egypt, not in Canaan, nowhere.

We _have_ the evidence of the Hebrews developing as a separate culture coming from the Canaanites. We know where and when they became their own people--about four centuries after the Exodus was purported to happen.

 

[outhouse]

But you have no absolute proof one way or the other.

.

Actually we do.


The people known as Israelites did not exist until after 1200 BC ish. We have the Stele of 1209 that deals with a semi nomadic people not identified with any power or state structure.

After 1200 BC which is roughly 50 years after the Canaanite civilization collapsed, we see a slow migration of Israelites to these highlands who began living a more sedentary lifestyle.


Israelites did not even really have their own culture until after 1000 BC.



So for Israelites to have been in Egypt, a person would first have to become a Israelite then become enslaved in Egypt.

That is not even accepted by any apologist



So then if you want to debate, "did some Semitic people that would become Israelites" well that is open for debate, despite there being no real evidence for such. And what evidence we do have points to the Canaanite culture in almost total.


The Canaanite alphabet used as Israelites first writing styles is evidence against a Egyptian heritage.

The use of solely Canaanite deities is also evidence against any Egyptian heritage.

The absence of any evidence at all archeologically speaking goes against you heavily.

The head archeologist in Egypt denies any Israelite connection as well claiming zero evidence there, goes against you.

The head archeologist in Israel denies any connect which also goes yet again, against you.

I can go on.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is simply insufficient evidence for you to conclude this, ...

Unless, of course, if by "hebrew" he means that subset of Semitic people that were never in Egypt.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jay, we _do_ know. This is not a case of absence of evidence, this is definite evidence of absence.

We can definitely dismiss the Exodus as written.

Srop playing with your goalpost (it looks obscene) and get back to your assertion that "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt". You may wish to start here.

 

[technomage]

There is simply insufficient evidence for you to conclude this, no more than for me to conclude the absolute opposite.

Again, as I noted to Jayhawker, this is not a case of absence of evidence--this is positive evidence of absence.

But you have no absolute proof one way or the other.

"Absolute proof" belongs solely to the realm of the alcohol content of distilled beverages. Indeed, "proof" is restricted to the realm of mathematics.

Levite, we're not dealing with mathematics, nor with alcoholic beverages. We're dealing with science--archaeology, linguistics, and the analysis of history. The evidence for the local development of the Hebrews from the Canaanites is too strong to even support a suggestion of an Exodus.

 

[technomage]

Srop playing with your goalpost (it looks obscene) and get back to your assertion that "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt".

Just listing an exhaustive bibliography would exceed the post length limits of the forum, much less listing the specific evidence. Discussing the evidence would--quite literally--take several books. I can give you a good list of introductory books and scientific papers on the topic ... but what will you even accept as evidence?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Just listing an exhaustive bibliography would exceed the post length limits of the forum,

It would also be grossly disingenuous on your part. So let's narrow it down a bit. What are the last two books you've read on Israelite ethnogenesis? (Might suggest I Faust and Frendo?)

 

[nazz]

Again, as I noted to Jayhawker, this is not a case of absence of evidence--this is positive evidence of absence.

To validly make the statement you did we would need an infallible record of the ethnic composition of every single person who ever lived in Egypt.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I don't know if there is absolute proof that no Hebrews ever migrated from Egypt. If you look at the list of the descendants of Levi in 1st Chronicles it does seem that some of them do have Egyptian sounding names such as Moses and Phinehas for example. Why did they adopt Egyptian sounding names?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

For those interested, there's a rather interesting interview with Richard Elliott Friedman (poorly titled "The Exodus Is Not Fiction") in the current issue of Reform Judaism (Spring 2014/5774).

 

[CynthiaCypher]

For those interested, there's a rather interesting interview with Richard Elliott Friedman (poorly titled "The Exodus Is Not Fiction") in the current issue of Reform Judaism (Spring 2014/5774).

Here it is: The Exodus is not Fiction

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thank you.

 

[technomage]

It would also be grossly disingenuous on your part. So let's narrow it down a bit. What are the last two books you've read on Israelite ethnogenesis? (Might suggest I Faust and Frendo?)

Faust is problematic. He gives one of the best surveys of current evidence, but Faust frequently ignores mixed communities, and tends to look at things in a "black-and-white" context. He's also a bit enthusiastic in his statements of just how early the Hebrews became a distinct culture. It's well written but there are some problems.

Frendo, on the other hand, writes a good book with fundamental flaws. His assessment, for instance, of "Rahab's room" completely ignores the fact that Jericho was unoccupied during either of the time periods suggested for the Conquest. Frendo is not discussing archaeology--he is discussing the reconciliation between the texts and the archaeology, but when a conflict occurs, to his mind, the text wins.

The most recent studies I have read include Pig Husbandry in Iron Age Israel and Judah (we discussed that document in another thread) and a review of T. Burgh's Listening to the Artifacts.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

To resurrect an earlier suggestion of mine: is anyone interested in a text study of Abraham Faust's Israel's Ethnogenesis: Settlement, Interaction, Expansion and Resistance?

 

[technomage]

To validly make the statement you did we would need an infallible record of the ethnic composition of every single person who ever lived in Egypt.

Nazz, the level of evidence you're asking for would invalidate every history textbook written. Of course the possibility exists that a small group of Semitic slaves left Egypt and that their foundation myth was adapted by Judah, but there is absolutely no evidence of this. On the other hand,there is copious evidence of one group of Canaanites splitting off, evolving a separate culture, and becoming Hebrews.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Faust is problematic.

Thanks for sharing. But (speaking of problematic) let's get back to your assertion that "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt".

 

[technomage]

For those interested, there's a rather interesting interview with Richard Elliott Friedman (poorly titled "The Exodus Is Not Fiction") in the current issue of Reform Judaism (Spring 2014/5774).

Friedman's arguments to the contrary, I have _never_ stated that the stories were "fiction." Unlike some critics, I most assuredly understand the difference between the common parlance definition of myth and the academic definition, and I most assuredly stick to the academic definition.