Did the Exodus occur?

[Agnostic75]

Yes, I read it back when it was first published.

It's a good book. You should read it some time. (It'll be a start.)

Where did I quote mine Finkelstein's position on the Exodus? All that I did was quote the article.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Where did I quote mine Finkelstein's position on the Exodus? All that I did was quote the article.

Yep …

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

… actually, you are correct. I should have said 'selective quoting' -- combing (i.e., mining) the internet for material that supports your position. I so pleased that you were able to dig up something from 2003. But a question for you: have you ever actually read a book on the topic?

 

[outhouse]

… . But a question for you: have you ever actually read a book on the topic?

Red herring is it not?


Cannot refute the work so we must attack the messenger?

 

[outhouse]

Here is some Dever I quote mined, that you cannot refute.

What Did the Bible Writers Know and When Did They Know It?

…the overwhelming archaeological evidence today of largely indigenous origins for early Israel leaves no room for an exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness. A Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in southern Transjordan in the mid-late13th century B.C., where many scholars think the biblical traditions concerning the god Yahweh arose. But archaeology can do nothing to confirm such a figure as a historical personage, much less prove that he was the founder of later Israelite region

 

[technomage]

That "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt" is accepted scholarly consensus? Really?

Yes, really. Dever comments on this consensus in _What did the Biblical Writers Know_. Enns makes it clear that the overwhelming majority of scholars look at the Pentateuch as being substantially finalized in the post-Exhilic period--yes, there are older portions, but even things like the Song of Deborah are not as old as has long been accepted (especially considering that Hazor was destroyed and depopulated around 1200 BCE--which means between the Joshua account or the Deborah account, one of them must be mythical, although both may be). Albright pretty much put paid to the concept of the Early Date proposed for the Exodus, yet his explanations involving a late date for the Exodus have also been generally abandoned.

If you've not already read it, I recommend Moore and Kelle's _Biblical History and Israel's Past_. You might also want to check out Davis' _Shifting Sands_ for a general overview on how archaeology in the Levant has changed over the decades.

Jay, we've been digging in and around modern Israel, and in Egypt, the Sinai, and the Transjordan for more than two centuries, and for all but about the last sixty years all of that effort was directed towards "proving" the accuracy of the Biblical accounts. Each and every pro-historicity hypothesis has fallen apart, some sooner, some later. And it wasn't like the people who were digging were somehow "hostile" to the history--like I said, up until about 60 years ago, the archaeologists who looked at these questions firmly and fully expected that their work would do nothing but confirm the Biblical narrative.

I am not a minimalist in regards to the Tanakh. I am quite firmly persuaded that the Bible has much to tell us about the time it was _actually_ written, even if it is less helpful (or not helpful at all) for the time periods it purports to depict. I do not view it as a history book, but as a theological commentary on a number of events, some mythical or legendary, some historical.

That is where the evidence leads.

Now, if you wish to discuss specific evidence, I am more than willing to do so ... but it must be on an actual positive question. No, I have no direct "proof" that the Hebrews were never in Egypt--instead, I have a considerable body of evidence that the Hebrews were in Canaan continuously from the time they emerged as a distinct culture until they were exiled by the Assyrians and later the Babylonians. There are considerable logical problems with the Exodus taken within its own scope, but you know as well as I do the difficulty in "proving" a negative.

But while I cannot "prove a negative," I most certainly _can_ provide a massive amount of evidence that the Hebrews were a continuous presence in Canaan until Israel, then Judah, were taken captive (and in the case of Israel, dispersed and assimilated).

Do you wish to discuss that evidence?

 

[technomage]

Did you read Faust and or Frendo?

I read Faust on inter-library loan a few years ago. I tried to read Frendo ... unfortunately, my health took a dive last fall and I was not able to finish it, but I have to admit I took some exfception with what I did read (as you noted above).

Would you care to reference specific chapters or subchapters with which you take issue and explain why?

If I still had the books available, gladly.

 

[roger1440]

Did the exodus happen? I don’t know in the literal sense, I wasn’t there. It is too far back in history, but in the spiritual sense, yes. Only God can release us from the bondage of sin. All we have to do is follow his voice. I find it best not to look at the exodus as an event of the past but rather than a transforming effect in my life at the present moment.
Did Moses have a magic stick that swallowed the Pharaoh’s magician’s snakes? I don’t know. I wasn’t there. What I do know is that God’s power is superior to any power on Earth, even that of Pharaoh’s. But then again, what do I know? I’m just some heretical Christian.

Let my people go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahkwQhQZWG8

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, really. Dever comments on this consensus in _What did the Biblical Writers Know_.

Read it. I've also read Dever's later book, Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From? with which I am in substantial agreement, …

… including:

The point of the forgoing is that among the principal architects who shaped the biblical overall tradition we assume that there were elements of the House of Joseph. Although a minority, they told their story as the story of all Israel. That would explain how the Exodus/Sainai tradition came into being. Some of these groups probably had come out of Egypt to Canaan,and in a way that upon reflection seemed miraculous to them. Later they assumed (or dictate?) that other of the heterogeneous groups that had made up early Israel had had the same experience. So they reworked the Exodus (and Conquest) stories and included them as part of the great national epic when this took final shape in writ in toward the end of the Monarchy. This version of events, however skewed, was soon to become Scripture and thus prevailed, as it still does in many circles today. It is not the whole story of Israelite origins, to be sure; but I would suggest that it may rest on some historical foundations, however minimal. …

- pg, 231

You might wish to consider the above and rethink the "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt" mantra.

If you've not already read it, I recommend Moore and Kelle's _Biblical History and Israel's Past_. You might also want to check out Davis' _Shifting Sands_ for a general overview on how archaeology in the Levant has changed over the decades.

I've read Davis. I just purchased "Biblical History and Israel's Past."

 

[Agnostic75]

Actually, you are correct. I should have said 'selective quoting' -- combing (i.e., mining) the internet for material that supports your position. I so pleased that you were able to dig up something from 2003. But a question for you: have you ever actually read a book on the topic?

No, but this is not a formal debate, and I have not claimed that I am an authority on the Exodus, or even that I am very knowledgeable on the subject.

You know that I said the following:

For purposes of this thread, my main interest is whether or not God caused the Exodus, and the Ten Plagues to occur. Are you aware of any credible evidence that God had anything to do with the Exodus, and the Ten Plagues? Nothing in the article that you mentioned says that God had anything to do with the Exodus, and the Ten Plagues.

Do any books that have been mentioned in this thread say that God had anything to do with the Exodus, and the Ten Plagues?

 

[steeltoes]

Did the Exodus occur?

If one has to ask the question then the answer is no.

 

[gnostic]

Evidences showed that the Hyksos arrived and settled in northern Egypt during the 2nd Intermediate Period. They arrived as conquerors, and left in the early part of 18th dynasty (New Kingdom), not as freed slaves.

My point is that these Hyksos were Semites, but were not the Israelites or Hebrews. They brought with them a few gods, like Ba'al, Astarte, Anat, and a few others, and they continued be worshipped by the native Egyptians, throughout the New Kingdom dynasties, and continued to be worship even as late 1st century CE.

There are no evidences of Elohim or YHWH in Egypt being worshipped, until the arrival of Hellenistic Jews in Alexandria.

Most of the time in 18th dynasty, parts of the 19th and 20th dynasties, Canaan have been under Egypt rule.

 

[outhouse]

Read it. I've also read Dever's later book, Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From? with which I am in substantial agreement, …

… including:

​

You might wish to consider the above and rethink the "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt" mantra.


I've read Davis. I just purchased "Biblical History and Israel's Past."

Except

Hebrews were never there. Dever clearly states they are not Israelites. He labels them "groups" not Hebrews/Israelites.


I have never discounted the heritage of Canaanites and that some of these displaced people/groups could have originated from Egypt and all over the Levant.

AND at best he states it is only a possible historical core which no one is arguing it is not.

 

[steeltoes]

Read it. I've also read Dever's later book, Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From? with which I am in substantial agreement, …

… including:You might wish to consider the above and rethink the "The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt" mantra.


I've read Davis. I just purchased "Biblical History and Israel's Past."

As if there has to be some kernel of historical truth behind every tall tale that was ever written. Is this some unwritten rule that believers go by? If one wants to talk dogma, this is it.

 

[steeltoes]

Oh yes, the possible historical core, yes indeed. The go to line after reading a story that has no basis in history. Hello, people make up stories for any number of reasons, they don't have to have an historical basis.

 

[outhouse]

I quote Dever in response.

Who did not say anything at all to help your position.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You know that I said the following:

For purposes of this thread, my main interest is whether or not God caused the Exodus, and the Ten Plagues to occur. Are you aware of any credible evidence that God had anything to do with the Exodus, and the Ten Plagues? Nothing in the article that you mentioned says that God had anything to do with the Exodus, and the Ten Plagues.

Do any books that have been mentioned in this thread say that God had anything to do with the Exodus, and the Ten Plagues?

Not the ones that I've read.

 

[nazz]

As if there has to be some kernel of historical truth behind every tall tale that was ever written. Is this some unwritten rule that believers go by? If one wants to talk dogma, this is it.

It's certainly not a rule I follow. There is such a thing as fiction which need not be based on any real event. There is legend which often times does have some historical basis. If the Exodus story is fiction, and the writer of it knew it it to be fiction, the question then arises as to when this fiction was introduced and why? And why was it subsequently accepted as fact by the Jewish people as a whole to the point that it became a foundational story for their very existence? I find it hard to answer those questions and so am more inclined to see it as legend loosely based on some historical event albeit much embellished.

 

[outhouse]

It's certainly not a rule I follow. There is such a thing as fiction which need not be based on any real event. There is legend which often times does have some historical basis. If the Exodus story is fiction, and the writer of it knew it it to be fiction, the question then arises as to when this fiction was introduced and why? And why was it subsequently accepted as fact by the Jewish people as a whole to the point that it became a foundational story for their very existence? I find it hard to answer those questions and so am more inclined to see it as legend loosely based on some historical event albeit much embellished.

None of us are arguing that it is not mythological in nature. As written, it is not substatiated, and viewed as theoogy not history.

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence.

and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDever200199-5

In either case, the Book of Exodus forms a "charter myth" for Israel:

Charter Myth being the key phrase.

Even if there is a historical core, and at this time it isnt even known to exist. It has nothing to do with the formation of Israelites.

 

[technomage]

It's certainly not a rule I follow. There is such a thing as fiction which need not be based on any real event. There is legend which often times does have some historical basis.

And there is such a thing as myth, which does not necessarily have any historical basis, but does not qualify as fiction.