Did Muhammed receive revelation to stone adulterers, commit adultery, then tell his disciples to Shh

[danieldemol]

Err. To prove something was in the Quran you have to use the Quran. To prove that something was in the tale of two cities you have to use the tale of two cities. If that is not a historical approach, then what is?

No one that I know of has so far asserted that this verse was a part of the Quran.

I shall leave all the may have's aside because they are kind of useless. I can say "you may be just making up lies because you just hate Islam and Muhammed and you may have an agenda". This is just rhetoric. ITs useless to say "May have " something, then something may have happened, and another "may have' may have occurred.

Cheers.

In the context of trying to grasp what is and is not the historical Muhammad it is useful to be open-minded to the possibilities. If you want to consider the possibility that my motive is hatred no problem, but be open minded to other possibilities too ay.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

No evidence for that. No manuscripts with any verse like that.

There wouldn't be if he told them not to write it.

I honestly don't even care. I'm not trying to make any case against Muhammad or Islam.

 

[loverofhumanity]

In the Quran there are only a few references I found regarding adultery.

adultery al-Isra’ (17) : 32
al-Nur (24) : 2, 3
al-Mumtahinah (60) : 12

Sura 24:2 prescribes 100 lashes for each the msn snd the woman and states not yo allow compassion to prevent the carrying out of this punishment.

2. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

It should be noted that the Quran is the Word of God, the sole authority. No Hadith or ruling by any religious body can abrogate or supersede a Quranic law.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

In the Quran there are only a few references I found regarding adultery.

adultery al-Isra’ (17) : 32
al-Nur (24) : 2, 3
al-Mumtahinah (60) : 12

Sura 24:2 prescribes 100 lashes for each the msn snd the woman and states not yo allow compassion to prevent the carrying out of this punishment.

2. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

It should be noted that the Quran is the Word of God, the sole authority. No Hadith or ruling by any religious body can abrogate or supersede a Quranic law.

Why do you believe that the Quran is the Word of God or "sole authority"? Because Muhammad said so? Wouldn't that make Muhammad the "sole authority"?

Logically, it is Muhammad - not the Quran - that is the "sole authority" since you are relying on what he said - or rather the written accounts of what he supposedly said - about the Quran.

Are there no records of him claiming that he revealed that stoning was the appropriate punishment for adultery?

Are there no records that he stoned those who he believed were guilty of committing adultery?

Are there no records of him telling his companions not to write that revelation in the Quran?

The teachings of Muhammad supersede the Quran since you what you taught about the Quran is the basis of your belief concerning it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Why do you believe that the Quran is the Word of God or "sole authority"? Because Muhammad said so? Wouldn't that make Muhammad the "sole authority"?

Logically, it is Muhammad - not the Quran - that is the "sole authority" since you are relying on what he said - or rather the written accounts of what he supposedly said - about the Quran.

Are there no records of him claiming that he revealed that stoning was the appropriate punishment for adultery?

Are there no records that he stoned those who he believed were guilty of committing adultery?

Are there no records of him telling his companions not to write that revelation in the Quran?

The teachings of Muhammad supersede the Quran since you what you taught about the Quran is the basis of your belief concerning it.

The Quran is its own testimony I believe, and is in need of no other testimony than it’s own Words. The Quran to me is the Word of God and all else the word of man which carries no authority over what God states in His Book. Muhammad received the Revelation but the Words were God’s not His own. He was bound by the Quran Himself.

 

[firedragon]

Is this thread about what people believe or what is actually the case?

Ah. See, you responded to a post addressing a Christian belief. So maybe that is not relevant to you. So, whats your issue now?

Alright. So since you want to make a comparison between the Bible and Ahadith, no problem. Lets take it if you wish for the sake of your argument in this thread. What is the Mathn and Isnad that makes the Bible Sarih like you would approach the ahadith?

 

[firedragon]

There wouldn't be if he told them not to write it.

So what is the evidence you have that Muhammed told "them" (whoever that is you mean) not to write it?

 

[firedragon]

No one that I know of has so far asserted that this verse was a part of the Quran.

Well, address the topic of the thread Daniel.

In the context of trying to grasp what is and is not the historical Muhammad it is useful to be open-minded to the possibilities. If you want to consider the possibility that my motive is hatred no problem, but be open minded to other possibilities too ay.

Nope. This is not about possibilities. You keep talking about historical approach as if that is your most prominent approach, then you speak of possibilities and "may have's". Thats not a historical approach. A historical approach is to get to "probabilities".

Please try and stay consistent.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

The Quran is its own testimony I believe, and is in need of no other testimony than it’s own Words. The Quran to me is the Word of God and all else the word of man which carries no authority over what God states in His Book. Muhammad received the Revelation but the Words were God’s not His own. He was bound by the Quran Himself.

Circular logic. The only identifiable source was Muhammad.

 

[firedragon]

Circular logic. The only identifiable source was Muhammad.

So you did not tell me FP. What evidence do you have to your claim that Muhammed told some one to not write in the Quran, his so called revelation about stoning adulterers?

How come you claimed it but you did not present any case to your claim? I think its a reasonable question. Maybe you have some evidence. So present it, unless you dont have any. Then you could simply say that you were mistaken. Its all good to do that.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

No one that I know of has so far asserted that this verse was a part of the Quran.

I quote you @Fallen Prophet who claimed that. But he also claims that Muhammed told others to not write that in the Quran after he himself did it.

Of course I am still awaiting his sources and his reasoning, but I can show you one person who made this claim.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

So what is the evidence you have that Muhammed told "them" (whoever that is you mean) not to write it?

I have provided sources already which attest to that.

 

[firedragon]

I have provided sources already which attest to that.

Where did you present them? In reply to my post or somewhere else?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Circular logic. The only identifiable source was Muhammad.

What power maintains and sustains the influence of the Quran as Muhammad passed away over 1,000 years ago? As the Quran says ‘produce a single Sura like it and call your witnesses’.

The fact is that there is an invisible power. We are surrounded by invisible forces that are real so a Holy Book which inspires the daily lives of almost 2 billion people is no circular argument but proof and evidence that it is the Word of God.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

So you did not tell me FP. What evidence do you have to your claim that Muhammed told some one to not write in the Quran, his so called revelation about stoning adulterers?

How come you claimed it but you did not present any case to your claim? I think its a reasonable question. Maybe you have some evidence. So present it, unless you dont have any. Then you could simply say that you were mistaken. Its all good to do that.

Cheers.

I quote you @Fallen Prophet who claimed that. But he also claims that Muhammed told others to not write that in the Quran after he himself did it.

Of course I am still awaiting his sources and his reasoning, but I can show you one person who made this claim.

Where did you present them? In reply to my post or somewhere else?

In my initial post to this thread. Post #14.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

What power maintains and sustains the influence of the Quran as Muhammad passed away over 1,000 years ago? As the Quran says ‘produce a single Sura like it and call your witnesses’.

The fact is that there is an invisible power. We are surrounded by invisible forces that are real so a Holy Book which inspires the daily lives of almost 2 billion people is no circular argument but proof and evidence that it is the Word of God.

Yet it is not identifiable. Only Muhammad is the identifiable source - as I claimed.

Anyone is free to believe what they want. They do - however - need to admit to themselves when they enter into logical fallacies.

Now - I am not saying that this circular logic makes the claims incorrect because I have no evidence that proves that - but it is still circular logic.

Your beliefs do not need identifiable evidence in order to be correct - but your beliefs are not above scrutiny either.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In the Quran there are only a few references I found regarding adultery.

adultery al-Isra’ (17) : 32
al-Nur (24) : 2, 3
al-Mumtahinah (60) : 12

Sura 24:2 prescribes 100 lashes for each the msn snd the woman and states not yo allow compassion to prevent the carrying out of this punishment.

2. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

It should be noted that the Quran is the Word of God, the sole authority. No Hadith or ruling by any religious body can abrogate or supersede a Quranic law.

Does this mean, Muhammad changed punishment from "stoning" to "100 lashes"?
Maybe in the earlier time and before the revelation of these verses "100 lashes", Muslims were following law of Torah which is stoning.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Does this mean, Muhammad changed punishment from "stoning" to "100 lashes"?
Maybe in the earlier time and before the revelation of these verses "100 lashes", Muslims were following law of Torah which is stoning.

Lashes was the only punishment for adultery I could find in the Quran but that doesn’t mean as you say that people didn’t apply the old laws. It would take time for the new laws to take effect even centuries perhaps.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yet it is not identifiable. Only Muhammad is the identifiable source - as I claimed.

Anyone is free to believe what they want. They do - however - need to admit to themselves when they enter into logical fallacies.

Now - I am not saying that this circular logic makes the claims incorrect because I have no evidence that proves that - but it is still circular logic.

Your beliefs do not need identifiable evidence in order to be correct - but your beliefs are not above scrutiny either.

I’m happy to try and understand your point of view as learning comes from sharing views so please feel very welcome to share your views and hopefully we can learn from each other.

 

[firedragon]

Geez. I was not being "insistent" - I merely shared the motivation behind my initial comments. I thought that matter was closed. You did not have to make a whole new thread. Feels somewhat vindictive.

Honestly - nothing "proves" that Muhammad claimed anything.

It's similar to the teachings of Christ in the New Testament.

No historical data "proves" that what the records claimed they taught was actually what they taught.

Quranic Verse on Stoning Adulterers - Islamweb - Fatwas

24. The Quran chapter 24. Stoning to death for adultery is not in the Quran. - Islam and the Quran

Is the stoning verse missing from the Quran?

Alright.So I must apologise I didnt see this post.

You have not quoted a single source that says "the prophet told his disciples not to write it in the Quran".

Also, you have not given any reason why you believe these sources. It seems like you have not read the OP.

Let me cut and paste for you.

1. What is the historical data that proves Muhammed claimed to have received the revelation that adulterers should be stoned, and he was so sure of the truthfulness of this idea that he performed the deed himself?

2. What is the historical data that proves he told his followers not to record this particular revelation?

3. Please provide evidence that this is historical. What is the analysis done?