Did Muhammad wish for his followers to believe in the Torah and Gospel?

[Dawnofhope]

Although the 4 Gospels were existing while prophet Mohamed alive but ....

I’m pleased you acknowledge that.

There were also other books circulating among Christians

There may well have been during the seventh century but they did not have anywhere near the same weight and authority as the four Gospels that were established as canonical during the fourth century.

There were also non denomination Christians and Christianities especially uniterianb who have their own books

Who are the uniterianb Christians?

Even these 4 Gospels were not same as existing today

I haven’t had time to respond to your previous thoughtful post. Although there have been some alterations since the seventh century these are relatively minor and would affect less than 1% of the texts of the Gospel as they were in the seventh century.

So, noway to say what is meant in Quran as injeel is exactly the 4 books existing today.

No one on this thread is saying that as far as I can see.

These 4 books have some of Almasseh Injeel but not is Almasseh Injeel.

Not sure what you mean by that.

Till date there are about 27 non canonical Gospels discovered. Non canonical doesn't mean they're facked but because denomination Christianities didn't accept them.

Do you think the Quran refers to one of these non-canonical books? If so, which one(s) and why?

Also, we don't have genuine Aramaic or Syriac Gospel which most property used by Arab Christians which properly existed in Arabic peninsula during prophet Mohamed life

That’s a huge assumption. What evidence do you have to support it?

 

[Niblo]

.... but so young at heart!

What is the Injil Muhammad refers to in the Holy Quran. It is most likely the same or similar Gospel/Evangel the Syrian Christians in the 7th century referred to as the Gospel (Injil).

That's not what I asked, Adrian. Please try again.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Allah said in Quran 5:48 "And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method."

I think we agree about this verse and it explains why the law in the Torah is different from the law of the Quran. It would make no sense for two books Revealed over two thousand years apart to say exactly the same thing. Societal conditions change and Divine laws that were appropriate for one age may not be appropriate for another. Do you think Sharia law is appropriate for our current age?

Oh, my fired Biblical Canon affected the scriptures but didn't put an end for scripture changes. Vice Versa, many textual variations found after Canon to support it.
Also Canon was not finalized in Nicaea Council 325 CE. As Holy spirit was added to the Trinity in 381 CE. The Canon is considered finalized only in 589, the Third Council of Toledo i
One of the most famous change in the Gospels is "Johannine Comma" John 5:7-8
Can you imagine that the first appearance in Bible is in 1522 CE ?

Although the Christian Canon was not finalised in the fourth century, most of it was.

Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia

The Johannine comma is a good example of an interpolation into a biblical text with an agenda to support the trinity. It is also an excellent example of the openness of scholarship in the West. I think it is a relatively minor change.

Johannine Comma - Wikipedia

John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That's not what I asked, Adrian. Please try again.

I can’t give you a specific answer at this stage as I’m still considering this matter. I presume by the Gospel or Evangel the Syrian Christians meant the Gospel Christ preached, the four Gospels in the New Testament or the New Testament as a whole. So the word Injil most likely refers to any of these three or a combination. I don’t believe it referred another ‘Gospel’ that existed amongst the Syrian Christians that has now been lost. Nor do I believe it was a reference to any of the apocryphal books that are also referred to as Gospels such as Barnabas or Thomas.

I believe Muhammad used the word Injil in a similar manner to what was understood at that time. So in a broad sense He was legitimising the Christian Gospel, which may have been Gospel of Christ, the four canonical Gospels, the New Testament or a combination of all three.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It does, severely does. The 4 books :

• Are not an inspiration to Almaseeh as Quran and Torah

I believe the Quran is more authentic than both the Gospel and Torah. However I consider all three Divinely Inspired. That is my belief as you have your belief. I don’t see that we can prove the Torah or Gospel wasn’t Divinely Inspired. To the contrary we are discussing books the Jews and Christians consider sacred and have served well as scripture from their inception to the present day. Why would God bless humanity with Revelations through Moses and Jesus and provide no meaningful record of that Revelation?

Are not sayings of Almaseeh like Hadeethes

There are similarities I agree. But which Hadiths are universally accepted amongst Muslims as being authentic?

None of them is matching the Injeel in Quran which is a 100% Revelation from Allah to Almaseeh

You are making assumptions about what the word Injil in the Quran means.

Are historical books (like Islamic Seera Books)

I wouldn’t make that comparison as the Gospel accounts include the Teachings of Jesus.

It has some from original Injeel but can't be considered Injeel from Islamic perspective

I agree Muslims have a particular understanding of what is meant by Injil in the Quran. The question is to what extent is it correct?

It's names are like some of Almaseeh's disciples but for sure they didn't wrote them

There is controversy about the authorship of all four Gospels. So while there is no agreement about the names of the authors there is no agreement the authors were anonymous either.

It doesn't have any chain of narrators, even the writers are unknown

Christians do not require a chain of narration. I agree having a chain of narration supports historicity but isn’t necessary to authenticate Biblical Canon.

• The writer of luke himself have written his book to a friend. How can this book considered authentic to Almaseeh ?

It is one theory amongst many. The existence of conflicting theories is part of open scholarship and study in the West. It doesn’t necessarily detract from the reliability and authenticity of Biblical canon.

 

[Link]

There were four Revelations Muhammad references. The Quran, the Gospel, the Torah and Zabur. The Zabur is mentioned only three times whereas the Injil is mentioned 12 times and the Tawrat 18 times. The emphasis is definitely on the Tawrat and Injil as opposed the Zabur. Who do you think Revealed the Zabur. In regards the Gospel its unmistakably associated with the Revelation of Jesus, Jesus is mentioned directly and indirectly 187 times in the Quran. He is the most mentioned person in the Quran.

Jesus in Islam - Wikipedia

Moses is mentioned 135 times in the Quran.

Moses in Islam - Wikipedia

Whoever Revealed the Zabur simply gets nowhere near as much attention as Jesus and Moses.

I told you a lot of is intact, some key parts are. And Zabur are more intact then Torah and Gospels from my studies. They are intact enough to see Mohammad (s) and his family (a) in there.

No one get's less intention. In the story of Talut (a) it is mentioned only in Suratal Baqara, but so is fasting Ramadan only mentioned there, and is obviously connected to lessons from Talut (a).

And the most repeated name is hidden in the Quran. It's not Moses (a). It's Samuel (a). Samuel (a) means name of God and that's the name most discussed with respect to meaning and which starts every chapter of Quran except one, and the discussion about God's name or names are all over. Don't confuse this with titles, Samuel (a) is a instance of the name of God, the image of God, the holy spirit from God.

Although God didn't mention his name explicitly, his name is hinted through out. And Seth (a) is not mentioned by name but similarly his name meaning is hinted in Suratal Shu'ara.
Mohammad (s) name mentioned 4 times, and Ahmad once, to interpret he is Mohammad (s) to the extent of Ahmad, and Ahmad means to the extent he is Mohammad (s). What that means is he is of praise is that it to the extent he is utmost praised of creation, and what is meant by utmost praised is not that he is just the best, but that he is completely praised that is all he does is to be praised.

Therefore Ahmad shows Mohammad (s) to be completely of utmost submission to God and there is no room to be better. Mohammad (s) couldn't be more submissive to God, he was completely submissive and all he did from the start was utmost praise type praise without any sin or neglect of God's Glory or Name vested in him.

Three of the Successors (a) of his, are named with the same name, to show his family (a) have the same perfection as far utmost submission to God goes. They are not identical twins but with whatever glory and beauty God gave each of them and talent, they did with it the best possible way, and worshipped God in the best manner, and strove for him with utmost power they can embrace from God and accepted all power and grace from God to the full of their perfect love to God.

The fact is Ahlulbayt (a) hadiths are the proper way to understand the Gospels, and Torah of Moses' (a), and books between revealed, and their hadiths and followers are those meant by twelve manners of fruits, they refer to the Twelve branches alluded to in Quran. And those who hate us, hate the tree of light we are connected to, and those who do, hate God.

 

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By the way, it's splitting between the members of each Ahlulbayt (a) whether it was Ahlulbayt (a) of Moses (a) and Aaron (a) or before them or after them, whether emphasizing on the first and neglecting the 2nd or on the last and ignoring the predecessors is what caused every nation to perish and become misguided.

It's none-sense. None of them are less important then the other, but it's as God speaks on Mohammad's (a) behalf who speaks on behalf of his family, "And none of us there is but has a well known place"

Elyas (a) is not less important then Isa (a) nor Isa (a) less important then Elyas (a).

 

[Link]

Gospel is very clearly not though. Jesus was not 'revealed' four biographies about his life from four different pre-Christian communities with differing views about Christology.
Jesus' gospel was not his biography, LMAO.

My belief in the Gospels is that it includes infancy Gospels and God revealed different versions paraphrased from perspectives of each disciple through Jesus, though the disciples weren't chosen by God but just were super good people that God trusted through Jesus (a) revealing and paraphrasing each Gospel to them. The reason he did this is to preserve the proper interpretation. Quran paraphrases words to Moses (a) and Moses' words about Aaron (a) many ways to interpret each other. Same with Zakariya's (a) prayer about Yahya (a).

There might be a fault in the Gospels, perhaps divorce and women place was not original words of Jesus (a) to disciples. Everything else seems fine to me to be honest. Don't confuse Paul interpretation and fallible leadership they called authority to be what Gospels actually say nor rely on their translations. It will become clear if you study, no doubt, most of the Gospels including infancy ones, are from God the Lord of the Worlds.

 

[Link]

There is also one Gospel kept by Elijah (a) revealed to Ahlulbayt (a) through Mohammad (a) and Elyas/Elijah (a) was the witness from Bani-Israel and the Prophets (a) the learned ones that knew about Mohammad (s) and were a proof, and you can read the Bible and see Mohammad (s) and in his family (a) place. And the Gospel paraphrased by Ahlulbayt (a) we have intact in Shiite sources, I believe, and is the most eloquent one because the Arabic is the proper interpretation of "sons of God" for example, in that it says "there are the near ones to God" (that would be the expression in Arabic) and it has additions about fighting oppressors and letting Tyrants succeed Tyrants but each generation is tasked to put an end to it. I gonna find it and post it, hold on.

 

[Link]

Read specially the long preaching:

A Portion of the Gospel

 

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My favorite part of this version of the Gospel:

In truth I say to you, surely fire does not occur in a single house, but it spreads from house to house, until many houses are burnt, unless the first house is reached and it is destroyed to its pillars. Then the fire finds no place to burn. Likewise the first oppressor, if his hand is stopped, no one will be found after him to be an unjust leader for others to follow, just as if the fire finds no wood or boards in the first house, it will not burn anything.

In truth I say to you, whoever looks at a snake that intends to strike his brother and does not warn him until it kills him, he will not be secure from partnership in his murder. Likewise, whoever looks at his brother doing something wrong, and does not warn him of its consequences until it encompasses him, he will not be secure from partnership in his sin. Whoever has the power to change an oppressor but does not change him, he is like an agent [of oppression].

How can the oppressor be frightened when he is safe among you and he is neither prohibited, nor changed, nor are his hands restrained? Why should the oppressors then give up? How should they not become arrogant? It is enough that one of you say, ‘I shall not oppress, but whoever wants to oppress, go ahead,’ and he sees oppression but does not change it. If it were as you say, why are you punished with the oppressors, though you do not commit their deeds, when the chastisement descends upon them in this world.

 

[Link]

Jesus (a) - God talked through him and then paraphrased his words and life eloquently to his disciples, each Gospel was a miracle to them, as it was through their eyes but God revealed to Jesus (a) to them, and those who know - know - God paraphrases it differently in each Gospel to interpret each other. The Quranic Surahs do the same with many stories but bring different reflections and dimensions to them.

Paraphrasing it including the infancy gospels and including the best version of it passed on to Ahlulbayt (a), is to preserve the truth.

Jesus (a) will come back and pray behind the Mahdi (a) to testify to him and will emphasize that God's graced us with regards to some over others when told to lead the prayer. This allusion to 4:54 and 4:59.

Jesus (a) I hope will succeed in drawing the people of the book to the Mahdi (a) their final authority and king on earth, and the final Messenger (The Mahdi is) with the hardest task and hardest message as he has no revelation but must interpret the Quran to the extent it will seem like a completely new book and completely different strange religion than what we are use to hearing about.

 

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Also, Shokh Efendi said Bible is partially corrupted as well and interpreted Bahai holy text differently then Bahais here. And he is supposed to be authority by God for them. lol.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How true! Bahaollah (He whom Allah will make manifest) and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (the Mahdi) have already done that. Quran has been reinterpreted and new religions have been created.

 

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By the way, the most quoted Prophet (a) in Quran in the past, is Jesus (a). And it's same with Shiite hadiths. The most quoted Prophet (a) of the past aside from Mohammad (s) is Jesus (a).

 

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Bahaollah (He whom Allah will make manifest) and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (the Mahdi) have already done that.

Claims with no proof and plenty proof against.

 

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Jesus (a) is also the sign hinted in Quran that will come from sky down to earth and people will see him.

 

[Link]

The best version of the Gospel(s) is what is narrated by Ahlulbayt (a). Check out the link. Not me, the link I posted dummies! (jokes, about the latter).

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, of course, Quran comes from the sky. It is Allah's word.

 

[Link]

Yeah, of course, Quran comes from the sky. It is Allah's word.

Jesus (a) will come and they will look at him dumb founded.