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Did Jesus ever Live ?
- Thread starter michel
- Start date
Smoke
Done here.
Of course not.sojourner said:
Well, I think they were, and that's one of my problems with Christianity, but we're wandering far from the OP here.sojourner said:
I would like to see somebody address my only really significant point on this thread, that Paul would not likely have identified his adversary James as the brother of Jesus unless James was, in fact, the brother of Jesus.
I'd also like to see somebody address Halcyon's points:
1. The Bethlehem problem.
Normally this is cited as an example of his non-existance, but for me it is the opposite. Here, a 9 month pregnant woman is described as making a 130 mile journey from Galilee to Bethlehem in Judea, a journey which would have caused her to lose the baby.
I don't believe that the story is true, it is there to show the Messiahship of Jesus, as prophecy dictates the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem.
The fact that someone created such a ludicrous story in order to have a man from Galilee have his birth in Bethlehem, to me, suggests that he really did live in Galilee and that this was an important obstacle to his being the Messiah.
2. The Origin of the Apostles
The origin of important characters like Peter and John is clearly given in the gospels, we are told how and where they became apostles. Yet Judas and Mary Magdalene have no origin story, yet play equally important roles. We know that Judas came from Kerioth and Mary from Magdala - but when did they meet Jesus, how and where?
This lack of background suggests to me that the writers of the gospels knew of their existance as apostles, but had no knowledge of their history. A fictional character could easily have been given a brief history.
3. Mary Magdalene
She is an ever present character in the gospels, often taking on the roles of a wife (annointing the body), yet she is downplayed in the gospel narratives to the point of her being declared a prostitute by Pope Gregory I. Why include such a character? Her role could have been played by the Virgin Mary or by Mary of Bethany. She seems unnecessary - unless of course she was a real person.
4. Pre-gospel relationships.
Judas, Mary Magdalene, his brothers and sisters, the family of Lazarus; all examples of relationships which appear to have been formed prior to the gospel accounts. Particularly important is Lazarus as a strong relationship is implied "the one you love is ill" yet such a relationship is unnecessary to the story of the gospel, in fact it only creates confusion whereas a fictional man's life could have been written without any confusion.
5. The Embarrassing Aspects
Peter denying Jesus, the disciples fleeing and hiding rather than protecting the Master, would a fictional account have included such events?
6. The Mandaens
The Mandaens recognise John the Baptist as the Messiah. Yet they also recognise a man named Jesus as existing, but that he was evil and concorted the teachings of the baptist. They could deny his existance, it would make things easier, but they don't.
The topic here is whether Jesus was a historical person, and the origins of later Christian myth about Jesus, and the plausibility of Christianity, are really irrelevant to the question. I think the preponderance of the evidence would lead a reasonable person to conclude that Jesus did live, and I haven't seen any compelling reason to conclude otherwise.Normally this is cited as an example of his non-existance, but for me it is the opposite. Here, a 9 month pregnant woman is described as making a 130 mile journey from Galilee to Bethlehem in Judea, a journey which would have caused her to lose the baby.
I don't believe that the story is true, it is there to show the Messiahship of Jesus, as prophecy dictates the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem.
The fact that someone created such a ludicrous story in order to have a man from Galilee have his birth in Bethlehem, to me, suggests that he really did live in Galilee and that this was an important obstacle to his being the Messiah.
2. The Origin of the Apostles
The origin of important characters like Peter and John is clearly given in the gospels, we are told how and where they became apostles. Yet Judas and Mary Magdalene have no origin story, yet play equally important roles. We know that Judas came from Kerioth and Mary from Magdala - but when did they meet Jesus, how and where?
This lack of background suggests to me that the writers of the gospels knew of their existance as apostles, but had no knowledge of their history. A fictional character could easily have been given a brief history.
3. Mary Magdalene
She is an ever present character in the gospels, often taking on the roles of a wife (annointing the body), yet she is downplayed in the gospel narratives to the point of her being declared a prostitute by Pope Gregory I. Why include such a character? Her role could have been played by the Virgin Mary or by Mary of Bethany. She seems unnecessary - unless of course she was a real person.
4. Pre-gospel relationships.
Judas, Mary Magdalene, his brothers and sisters, the family of Lazarus; all examples of relationships which appear to have been formed prior to the gospel accounts. Particularly important is Lazarus as a strong relationship is implied "the one you love is ill" yet such a relationship is unnecessary to the story of the gospel, in fact it only creates confusion whereas a fictional man's life could have been written without any confusion.
5. The Embarrassing Aspects
Peter denying Jesus, the disciples fleeing and hiding rather than protecting the Master, would a fictional account have included such events?
6. The Mandaens
The Mandaens recognise John the Baptist as the Messiah. Yet they also recognise a man named Jesus as existing, but that he was evil and concorted the teachings of the baptist. They could deny his existance, it would make things easier, but they don't.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
LOL...I knew you were going to pin me on that one. What I meant to say is that none of us, at that point, were operating in accordance witht he teachings of Jesus. I should have been clearer.
I agree with your next point, however, with the following exception:
I think it's important that we acknowledge the mythology as evidenciary of an historical Jesus.
logician
Well-Known Member
"The burden of proof lies with the one leveling the charges. Your charge is that we made Jesus up. Can you prove that we did?
POppycock, the burden of proof is always on the positive assertion, not the negative. When you claim a man performed miracles and rose from the dead, you'd better have more evidence than unknown writers inventing tales 2000 years ago - they easily could have been made up. Christianity was just another fable competing with similiar fables
circulating in Rome at the time.
"
Many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism.
Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. A religion in his name was founded in the 6th century BCE. 5 Mithraism one of the most popular of religions in the Roman Empire, particularly among its soldiers and civil servants. It was Christianity's leading rival. 19 Mithra was also believed to have been born of a virgin. Like Jesus, their births were celebrated yearly on DEC-25. Mithra was also visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his 12 disciples. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame, etc. Symbols associated with Mithra were a Lion and a Lamb. He held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb. He rose again after three days later, at the time of the spring equinox, circa MAR-21. He later ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to the rituals of the Catholic church. Some individuals who are skeptical about stories of Jesus' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans. St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did."
POppycock, the burden of proof is always on the positive assertion, not the negative. When you claim a man performed miracles and rose from the dead, you'd better have more evidence than unknown writers inventing tales 2000 years ago - they easily could have been made up. Christianity was just another fable competing with similiar fables
circulating in Rome at the time.
"
Many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism.
Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. A religion in his name was founded in the 6th century BCE. 5 Mithraism one of the most popular of religions in the Roman Empire, particularly among its soldiers and civil servants. It was Christianity's leading rival. 19 Mithra was also believed to have been born of a virgin. Like Jesus, their births were celebrated yearly on DEC-25. Mithra was also visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his 12 disciples. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame, etc. Symbols associated with Mithra were a Lion and a Lamb. He held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb. He rose again after three days later, at the time of the spring equinox, circa MAR-21. He later ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to the rituals of the Catholic church. Some individuals who are skeptical about stories of Jesus' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans. St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did."
Buttercup
Veteran Member
You may have not read through all the thread but three weeks ago I posted the information below. Archaeology does point to a place called Nazareth existing in Jesus' time....there's much more info than this if you dig for it.logician said:
The existence of Nazareth in Jesus day had been doubted by criticsuntil its name showed up in a first-century synagogue inscription at Caesarea. Augustus census edicts (in connection with the Nativity) are borne out by an inscription at Ankara, Turkey, his famous Res Gestae ("Things Accomplished"), in which the Roman emperor proudly claims to have taken a census three times. That husbands had to register their families for the Roman census was mandated in census papyri discovered in Egypt.
Dr. Paul L. Maier is professor of Ancient History and chaplain at Western Michigan University-Kalamazoo, MI.
The Nazareth Farm Excavation
On a visit to Nazareth Hospital in November 1996, CSECs director Stephen Pfann identified an ancient winepress associated with agricultural terraces on the hospital grounds and the adjacent land. Potsherds found on the surface of the terraces dated from various periods beginning with the early-to-late Roman Period. (Early Roman Period .Late Second Temple Period / 63 BCE - 70 CE .addition, mine.)
A survey of the area was conducted in February 1997 by CSECs archaeological staff. Four seasons of excavation, licensed by the Israel Antiquities Authority and under the joint direction of Ross Voss and S. Pfann, have been carried out by CSEC, with the help of students and local volunteers. These excavations have confirmed the land to be a complete Roman Period terrace farm with a winepress, watchtowers, olive crushing stones, irrigation systems, and an ancient quarry, and have illuminated previously unknown aspects of terrace farming in the Galilee.
The character of the site indicates that the valley and its slopes likely comprised the property of a single familys farm, which produced a variety of crops. Most of the extent of the original farm has been preserved. This farm remains the most important, and perhaps the only, witness to the life and livelihood of the ancient Nazarenes.
http://www.uhl.ac/NazarethVillage/nazareth.html
More
http://www.comp-archaeology.org/Nasa...Cult8000BC.htm
SunMessenger
Catholic
Sometimes we need to look back to understand the messages of today ...logician said:
"During this period, many men will abuse of the freedom of conscience conceded to them. It is of such men that Jude the Apostle spoke when he said: 'These men blaspheme whatever they do not understand; and they corrupt whatever they know naturally as irrational animals do... They will ridicule Christian simplicity; they will call it folly and nonsense, but they will have the highest regard for advanced knowledge, and for the skill by which the axioms of law, the precepts of morality, the Holy Canons and religious dogmas are clouded by senseless questions and elaborate arguements."
Ven. Bartholomew Holzhauser - Seventeenth Century
SunMessenger
Catholic
logician said:
"We are now standing in the face of the greatest historical confrontation humanity has gone through. I do not think that wide circles of American society or wide circles of the Christian community realize this fully. We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel versus the anti-Gospel."
Karol Cardinal Wojtyla (Pope John Paul II)
logician
Well-Known Member
So we're suddenly supposed to believe the entire text of the NT because some city might have existed? LOL
Why is it that the Jesus tale must be true, but all other religious tales must be false?
Why not believe Zeus is real, there certainly was plenty written about him?
Why is it that the Jesus tale must be true, but all other religious tales must be false?
Why not believe Zeus is real, there certainly was plenty written about him?
Buttercup
Veteran Member
What does Zeus have to offer me? My version of religion is this...is you are looking for God and you believe there is the possibility for the existence of God, you go looking for answers. Christianity suits me the best. And there's been enough "proof" to convince me of many things about Christ.logician said:
SunMessenger
Catholic
To call Christianity unique would mean that there is no other good in the world. I thank God there is much good in the world. Jesus is one of the brightest examples of good and I love Him . Be Well and God Bless...logician said:
SunMessenger
Catholic
Perhaps You should ask Him yourself. I know He will answer... Be Well and God Bless...logician said:
Defij
Member
logician said:
What makes you believe that Christianity and free thought and reason are mutually exclusive? I myself am more into critical thought and reasoning and these go hand in hand with Christianity. Saying that one must abandon Christianity in order to have reasoned thought is simply ridiculous.
Smoke
Done here.
Mithraism does bear a striking resemblance, in many respects, to Christianity. But what's that got to do with the historical Jesus? Here's the above edited down to what's likely to be true about Jesus:logician said:
He traveled, taught
It's a huge jump from accepting the historicity of Jesus to accepting the whole Christian mystery religion.