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Did Jesus ever Live ?

M

Majikthise

Guest
If Jesus did exsist, only as a man, not the son of god, then he should be numero uno in the con -man's hall of fame.
My friends have tried to get me to at least admit that Jesus actually lived even if I don't believe he was a messenger from god. If that that were the case, then he was either a genious working towards his own benefit or a complete lunatic. And I don't believe for one second that the bible has anything but the slightest remnants of actual historical fact, if any at all.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
logician said:
Socrates, Plato, and JOsepus wrote extensively and had contemporaries write about them. The supposed Jesus wrote nothing, and no contempory historian mentions such a man.

The reality that Jesus wrote nothing btw is huge. I mean here you have the smartest guy in the room who knows, long before the people of his day know, that the more people who accept him as his savior the more people who get to go to heaven, and by contrast the more people who reject him as a savior the more people who burn in hell for all eternity. However, upon knowing that he decided he doesn't really have any motive or reason to bother to write anything down for evidence by later generations of humans.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
I believe Jesus was a real man for these reasons;

1. The Bethlehem problem.
Normally this is cited as an example of his non-existance, but for me it is the opposite. Here, a 9 month pregnant woman is described as making a 130 mile journey from Galilee to Bethlehem in Judea, a journey which would have caused her to lose the baby.
I don't believe that the story is true, it is there to show the Messiahship of Jesus, as prophecy dictates the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem.
The fact that someone created such a ludicrous story in order to have a man from Galilee have his birth in Bethlehem, to me, suggests that he really did live in Galilee and that this was an important obstacle to his being the Messiah.

2. The Origin of the Apostles
The origin of important characters like Peter and John is clearly given in the gospels, we are told how and where they became apostles. Yet Judas and Mary Magdalene have no origin story, yet play equally important roles. We know that Judas came from Kerioth and Mary from Magdala - but when did they meet Jesus, how and where?
This lack of background suggests to me that the writers of the gospels knew of their existance as apostles, but had no knowledge of their history. A fictional character could easily have been given a brief history.

3. Mary Magdalene
She is an ever present character in the gospels, often taking on the roles of a wife (annointing the body), yet she is downplayed in the gospel narratives to the point of her being declared a prostitute by Pope Gregory I. Why include such a character? Her role could have been played by the Virgin Mary or by Mary of Bethany. She seems unnecessary - unless of course she was a real person.

4. Pre-gospel relationships.
Judas, Mary Magdalene, his brothers and sisters, the family of Lazarus; all examples of relationships which appear to have been formed prior to the gospel accounts. Particularly important is Lazarus as a strong relationship is implied "the one you love is ill" yet such a relationship is unnecessary to the story of the gospel, in fact it only creates confusion whereas a fictional man's life could have been written without any confusion.

5. The Embarrassing Aspects
Peter denying Jesus, the disciples fleeing and hiding rather than protecting the Master, would a fictional account have included such events?

6. The Mandaens
The Mandaens recognise John the Baptist as the Messiah. Yet they also recognise a man named Jesus as existing, but that he was evil and concorted the teachings of the baptist. They could deny his existance, it would make things easier, but they don't.

I believe he was a real man. But i don't believe he was the literal son of God, i don't believe he would of warrented any more attention than any other wandering preacher at the time. His message has survived though, which is testament to the power of that message, the other preachers have fallen into complete obscurity.

Why didn't he write anything down?

Why would he?
The factors which contributed to his understanding of reality, the people and belief systems which allowed him to become what he was existed at his time. People simply had to retrace his footsteps to reach his level of understanding.
Also a teacher of his kind, the type that wanders from place to place, generally has a scribe as one of his disciples. The teacher is asked questions and gives answers, the scribe records these. Look at the Gospel of Thomas for a literal example.

Just like Buddha, it was his followers that were concerned with recording his teachings, the Master simply gives answers to questions posed - usually answers specifically tailored for the person who posed the question. I don't think it was ever his intention to found a religion.
 
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Smoke

Done here.
robtex said:
The reality that Jesus wrote nothing btw is huge. I mean here you have the smartest guy in the room who knows, long before the people of his day know, that the more people who accept him as his savior the more people who get to go to heaven, and by contrast the more people who reject him as a savior the more people who burn in hell for all eternity. However, upon knowing that he decided he doesn't really have any motive or reason to bother to write anything down for evidence by later generations of humans.
I think it's a huge issue only if you insist that he is who Christians say he is. Once you look at Jesus independently of Christian mythology, though, there's no more compelling reason for him to have left writings behind than for John the Baptist, or Honi the Circle-Drawer, or Theudas to have done so.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Jesus was said to have lived in Nazaraeth in the gospels, yet there is no record whatsoever that this city ever existed. "The Encyclopaedia Biblica, a work written by theologians, the greatest biblical reference work in the English language, says: "We cannot perhaps venture to assert positively that there was a city of Nazareth in Jesus' time."

"Matthew and Luke give us the story of his genealogy. How do they agree? Matthew says there were forty-one generations from Abraham to Jesus. Luke says there were fifty-six. Yet both pretend to give the genealogy of Joseph, and both count the generations! Nor is this all. The Evangelists disagree on all but two names between David and Christ. These worthless genealogies show how much the New Testament writers knew about the ancestors of their hero. "
 

Smoke

Done here.
logician said:
Jesus was said to have lived in Nazaraeth in the gospels, yet there is no record whatsoever that this city ever existed. "The Encyclopaedia Biblica, a work written by theologians, the greatest biblical reference work in the English language, says: "We cannot perhaps venture to assert positively that there was a city of Nazareth in Jesus' time."
However, the Encyclopedia Biblica -- which was written without the benefit of the last century and more of scholarship and archaeology -- puts forward the view that "Nazareth" should properly be understood as the region of Galilee, and not as a particular village. All the evidence indicates that Nazareth has been inhabited since long before the time of Jesus.

logician said:
"Matthew and Luke give us the story of his genealogy. How do they agree? Matthew says there were forty-one generations from Abraham to Jesus. Luke says there were fifty-six. Yet both pretend to give the genealogy of Joseph, and both count the generations! Nor is this all. The Evangelists disagree on all but two names between David and Christ. These worthless genealogies show how much the New Testament writers knew about the ancestors of their hero. "
The genealogies are obviously worthless, unless a believer grasping at straws may manage to see them as symbolic.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
"All the evidence indicates that Nazareth has been inhabited since long before the time of Jesus.

Really, what evidence? Please provide links to such.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
whether or not he was a real historical figure doesn't matter...

this is faith...not history class

i think the ideas of loving your neighbor are far more important than proving the existance of a single jewish man who may or may not have lived in Judea 2000 years ago...
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
logician said:
ONe can love thy neighbor w/o believing in 2000 year old fairy tales.

well technically that orginally comes from Judaism...so it's more like 3500 years old...

but regardless...if it helps them to be better people, because the majority of christians are NOT jerry falwell, what's the big deal?:rolleyes:
 

Smoke

Done here.
logician said:
Really, what evidence? Please provide links to such.
To be frank, I was talking off the top of my head without any particular reference in mind; I've read a great deal about Syro-Palestinian archaeology over the last thirty years, and I'm sure I'm right, but if you really need a source I'd have to dig a bit. I wouldn't have read about it online, though, and if you need links, you could probably find them as well as I could.

You could, at any rate, consult a source written in the last hundred years; there's been quite a bit of research done over the last century.
 

Smoke

Done here.
jewscout said:
whether or not he was a real historical figure doesn't matter...

this is faith...not history class
Whether he was a real historical figure is the very topic of this thread. ;)

And for some us, at least, history is at least as useful and interesting as "faith."
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
logician said:
Christianity is absurd from most any viewpoint. It is a barbaric religion based upon blood sacrifice. You would think after 2000 years this mythical relic would be abandoned in favor of scientific reason , and freethought. The only WAY ANY religion can maintain power is to stifle reason and objectivity.

You'd think so...until you really take a good look at things. Jesus taught "Love your neighbor." Scientific reason and free thought gave us the atomic bomb, with which we (the most free nation on earth) blew up or maimed thousands of innocent people. Who's stifling reason and objectivity here?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
logician said:
No historian that lived WHEN the supposed Jesus lived ever mentioned the man, his apostlles, his miracles, or the essentials of the passion story. WHAT little exists in history was most certainly a forgery of the church in later centuries, and is hearsay - i.e. not an eyewitness account.

At the time, it wasn't considered to be an important event by historians. Jesus was seen by the establishment (where the historians would have been) as an obscure rabblerouser -- not worth wasting the ink on.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
MidnightBlue said:
Whether he was a real historical figure is the very topic of this thread. ;)

And for some us, at least, history is at least as useful and interesting as "faith."

ahhhh right MidnightBlue...my bust
i agree history is very useful...hell i have a degree in the field

but believing in something doesn't mean you do this based off of anything else other than pure faith, nor is it a requirement...



for the record......i don't really care one way or the other...:beach:
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
logician said:
I am an atheist. I abandoned Christianity long ago for the objectivity of freethought and reason. In these days ANYTHING should be examined from a reasoned viewpoint, and that includes ancient religions.

and yet...according to the Church herself, the faith is built upon scripture, tradition, and reason.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
logician said:
The vatican again announced today the condemnation of condoms. contraception, abortion, and same sex marriage, relegating millions to suffer, and showing that the RCC still lives in the dark ages. Society needs to be set free from this unscientific, evil tradition that mainly exists to keep power and money.

To think that the church wouldn't stoop to forging documents to make up a human Jesus is the ultimate in naivity.

One has to wonder about the rationale behind a group of disenfranchised, oppressed, illiterate, poverty-stricken people dreaming up an insurrectionist who would pi$$ off the Romans, pi$$ off their Jewish brethren, causing them to be hated, ostracized, hunted down and murdered. Makes a whole lot of sense. Not.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
logician said:
The onus is always on the person who posits something to prove it, not on somone else to disprove it. I can say the moon is made of green cheese, which implies I had better have evidence to back my claim. The onus is NOT on the other guy to prove the moon isn't made of green cheese. LIkewise, Christianity says that Jesus lived, performed miracles, died, and was ressurected, yet offers no convincing proof whatsoever that such a fantasy really happened.

The burden of proof lies with the one leveling the charges. Your charge is that we made Jesus up. Can you prove that we did?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
robtex said:
The reality that Jesus wrote nothing btw is huge. I mean here you have the smartest guy in the room who knows, long before the people of his day know, that the more people who accept him as his savior the more people who get to go to heaven, and by contrast the more people who reject him as a savior the more people who burn in hell for all eternity. However, upon knowing that he decided he doesn't really have any motive or reason to bother to write anything down for evidence by later generations of humans.

You're assuming that the whole point of Jesus' ministry was to "get people to believe in him so they could go to heaven." The message Jesus preached was, "Repent, for the kingdom is near." Jesus came in order to reform our lives here and now -- to change the paradigm of human interaction, not to leave a disconnected, historical legacy written in a book. People come to faith by interacting with those who believe, by participating with them in acts of love, not by reading a book of cold, impersonal facts. Jesus was relying on us, his followers, to be inclusive and spread this new paradigm, not on himself.
 

Smoke

Done here.
sojourner said:
Jesus taught "Love your neighbor."
Indeed he did, and I can value the teachings of Jesus without valuing the teachings of Christianity.

sojourner said:
Scientific reason and free thought gave us the atomic bomb, with which we (the most free nation on earth) blew up or maimed thousands of innocent people. Who's stifling reason and objectivity here?
Not only the most free nation on earth, but the most self-consciously and ostentatiously Christian nation on earth. It was a Baptist president who ordered the bombing of Hiroshima, and a Methodist bombardier who dropped the bomb.
 
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