Did Jesus ever Live ?

[michel]

Originally posted by ProfLogic

I would like to debate on the existance of Jesus. He never existed in the first place. Even the actual celebration of Dec 25 was from the pagan religion in their honor of the birth of Tammuz. The most of the old testament bible was taken form the Babylonian epic "Enuma Elish ". If you want to know the truth about the manipulation and lies of what people refer to religion, then read the birth of Tammuz - a mirror of the fable of the life of this Jesus character and be the judge for your self. If you look at history, if someone wanted to create their own following the easiest way is to write something that can never be proven wrong or right, hence the bible. All I ask is for a person to read objectively and maybe you will know the truth. I do not want to bash on religion but it is really a business. Hope someone can debate me on the bible, I am here to learn. Thanks.

 

[d.]

isn't it possible that the man lived, but the myth around him was invented and borrowed from other traditions (which it in all honesty most probably was)? if jesus' followers wanted to 'sell' his message, they would need to make it seem, to the 'heathen', like he was 'really something' by their standards.

here's a good link with info concerning parallels between the jesus myth and other contemporary myths :

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm

btw, the winter solstice is dec 21, the darkest day of the year. that's why christmas is celebrated december 24/25, the church basically took over this tradition.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/winter_solstice.htm

(religious tolerance is such a nice resource, isn't it? )

 

[jeffrey]

I believe he did. Many religions refer to him, not just Christianity. Some think he was a prophet. Others the son of God. Just because some celebrate his birth on a date that was not his actual birthday, does not make him not real. If you did not know your brother's date of birth, so you chose a day for a symbolic reason, does that then make your brother not real?

 

[d.]

it'd be interesting if anyone actually had any evidence either way.

most likely, it's like the robin hood story. the man existed, did some stuff, people remembered him, dreamed up stories about him, and - voila! kevin costner in green tights!

 

[Buttons*]

Actually, I dont believe he existed.... *hides*

 

[niceguy]

He definity existed in a spirutal sense, that is what is really imortant. If the Christan faith are worth anything, then any facts regarding the physical persons existance or not cannot change that.

 

[jeffrey]

Actually, I dont believe he existed.... *hides*

*Makes a cross sign with fingers* BACK I SAY, BACK!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I believe he did. Many religions refer to him, not just Christianity.

That is an intellectually vapid argument.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The most of the old testament bible was taken form the Babylonian epic "Enuma Elish ".

This was apparently written by someone who has read neither.

 

[Sunstone]

isn't it possible that the man lived, but the myth around him was invented and borrowed from other traditions (which it in all honesty most probably was)? if jesus' followers wanted to 'sell' his message, they would need to make it seem, to the 'heathen', like he was 'really something' by their standards.

here's a good link with info concerning parallels between the jesus myth and other contemporary myths :

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm

btw, the winter solstice is dec 21, the darkest day of the year. that's why christmas is celebrated december 24/25, the church basically took over this tradition.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/winter_solstice.htm

(religious tolerance is such a nice resource, isn't it? )

There's not much to add to this excellent post, which gets to the essential point that Jesus Christ is most likely a commentary, almost an afterthought, on the life and teachings of Yeshua of Nazareth. But does that invalidate the humaneness of some of those teachings? Does it invalidate their wisdom? Does it make the message of universal love any less meaningful, for instance?

 

[jeffrey]

That is an intellectually vapid argument.

As is your respopse.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There's not much to add to this excellent post, which gets to the essential point that Jesus Christ is most likely a commentary, almost an afterthought, on the life and teachings of Yeshua of Nazareth.

On the contrary, Christianity is most likely a development of the theology of Paul and the growing anti-Judaism of the early gentile mission. Read Paul - the earliest commentator - and you'll find zero commentary on a 'Yeshua of Nazareth'.

 

[Sunstone]

On the contrary, Christianity is most likely a development of the theology of Paul and the growing anti-Judaism of the early gentile mission. Read Paul - the earliest commentator - and you'll find zero commentary on a 'Yeshua of Nazareth'.

Of course you make another excellent point here, Jay. If there was a Yeshua of Nazareth (and I don't know how anyone could conclusively prove there was), then Paul certainly paid little or no attention to him.

I wonder if I can bring up something that's interested me lately, without getting too far off topic. I've been wanting to ask you if you think Christianity was in some sense crucial as a vehicle for bringing Jewish humanism to the West? Of course, that would be later than the early Christianity. Much later. But do you think Jewish humanism would have come to the West anyway, through the Diaspora, and, more to the point, have had such an influence on Christian and secular humanism, if it had not been that Christianity paved the way for it? Or, is this question nonsensical to begin with? Something I've been wondering about.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But does that invalidate the humaneness of some of those teachings? Does it invalidate their wisdom? Does it make the message of universal love any less meaningful, for instance?

We often see what we want to see and explain away the rest. The Infancy Gospels paint the young Yeshua as a dangerous brat, so we simple ignore them as uninspired. Meanwhile, gMat 10:3-37 (Luke 14:26) give us a glimpse of a pesonality more appropriate to David Koresh, so apologists twist and turn to render it palatable.

The 'wisdom' found in the NT is common currency. This is not to denigrate it but, rather, to insist that Yeshua, historical or not, has no copyright on the Golden Rule.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But do you think Jewish humanism would have come to the West anyway, through the Diaspora, and, more to the point, have had such an influence on Christian and secular humanism, if it had not been that Christianity paved the way for it? Or, is this question nonsensical to begin with? Something I've been wondering about.

See here.

 

[Sunstone]

See here.

*chuckle* You've linked me to the thread you started that got me thinking about Jewish humanism to begin with! Then Lilithu mentioned something about it elsewhere, and I've been hooked ever since. I've never been able to forgive either one of you for inspiring so many unaswered, but fascinating, questions, of course. Do you ever grin diabolically when you start such threads, Jay?

I think I might bring up my questions in that thread later on today or tomorrow, where they will be more on topic than here. Thanks for digging up the link to that! I'd lost where the thread was.

 

[CaptainXeroid]

I believe not only that Jesus lived but that he performed the miracles during his ministry as described in the Gospels.

I'm sure there are a few hold outs, but I would imagine most Christians realize that December 25 is probably not the exact date of Jesus' birth and that date was chosen by the early church to attract pagans who carried out celebrations around the winter solstice. IIRC, a History or Discovery Channel program made a 'best guess' that the date was most likely between May and September, 3 BC.

Considering that we have trouble determining when some people in the last 20 years were born, the fact that an exact date over 2,000 years ago is hard to pin down does not disprove Jesus' existance nor does it diminish the importance of his teachings. To those who don't want to believe in Jesus' existance, that doubt will be enough, and for those who do, faith will overcome the doubt.:162:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You've linked me to the thread you started that got me thinking about Jewish humanism to begin with! Then Lilithu mentioned something about it elsewhere, and I've been hooked ever since. I've never been able to forgive either one of you for inspiring so many unaswered, but fascinating, questions, of course. Do you ever grin diabolically when you start such threads, Jay?

It pleases me that you've found some of my threads thought provoking. As for Lilithu, her posts are of a uniformly high quality and always worth reading.

I think I might bring up my questions in that thread later on today or tomorrow, where they will be more on topic than here.

PM me if you start such a thread. I'll be at the synagogue tonight, so I'll probably not be able to comment until later tomorrow. Take care ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I believe not only that Jesus lived but that he performed the miracles during his ministry as described in the Gospels. ... To those who don't want to believe in Jesus' existance, that doubt will be enough, and for those who do, faith will overcome the doubt.

... and reason.

 

[robtex]

it'd be interesting if anyone actually had any evidence either way.

I don't know if you could have evidence that someone did not exist.

As far as the debate topic somethings I find curious about the Jesus incident:

In Acts chapter 9 Saul (who later becomes Paul) see Jesus in a vision on the road to Damascus. Meaning he readily admits he didn't convert because he physically met Jesus but mentaly percieved him

Jesus never wrote a single word of the Bible or elsewhere. He is considered in the Christian faith to be a rabbi. Rabbi's in comparision to most other religions write quite a bit of literature in the name of their faith. Yet, what should have been the most important rabbi in the existance of man, the son of God, savior of the world, didn't write a single word anywhere.

In Corinthians 1 Chapter 15 versus 6 Paul claims that there were 500 witness to the resurrection of Christ. None of these "500 witness" ever came forward to collaborate Paul's claim of Christ. Not outside the Bible, is Jesus mentioned unless the writing refers to the Bible as its source. This means one of two things:

1)that 500 people watched a man die, come back to life and than decided not to write anything down or talk to others around them who may have wrote that down.

2) Paul made the story up.

According to religious tolerance.org there is no writings mentioning Jesus in the time frame that he lived. The website gave a range of 7 bce to 33 ce


http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm

As far as I can tell, The Jewish religion does not specifically aknowledge Jesus the rabbi. That doesn't mean he didn't exist however, I would expect the son of God, to be charismatic enough to stand-out from the other rabbi's in that time period yet in Judiasm he does not stand out in that time period. He is not in fact, mentioned by rabbis or that religion at all in that time.